Hot air? Tea Party opposes sustainability agenda

Carole Thorpe wants the Charlottesville community to know the difference between sustainability and Sustainability. The former, argues the Jefferson Area Tea Party chairwoman, is the common goal of achieving reasonable environmental standards, while the latter, she says, is the deceptive name for a radical agenda intending to strengthen the central government under “the guise of well-intentioned environmentalism.” At a June 2 press conference, Thorpe assured the audience that it was Sustainability, with the sly capital S, that the JATP hopes to eradicate from local policy.

Eleven people– interested civilians, members of the press, and one official from the Board of Supervisors— showed up at the Albemarle County Office Building to hear Thorpe and several other panelists speak against the county’s environmental agenda.

Thorpe denounced Albemarle’s sustainability measures, including its membership in the International Council for Local Environmental Initiatives, as well as its participation in a ”Cool Counties” initiative, and the federally-funded “Livable Communities." She argued that these policies wrongly justify federal and international encroachment in local matters.

“Our local problems and objectives should be identified, planned, and implemented by local elected officials and local personnel with the input of local citizens, and funded with local taxpayer money,” declared Thorpe, who rejects "alarmist warnings crafted to whip up the irrational fear that our planet is on the brink of destruction" and called the popular conception of climate change an “elaborate fraud.”

John Munchmeyer, president of the Jefferson Area Libertarians, added that the Earth’s climate is largely unaffected by man’s actions and that costly remedies are thus ineffectual.

“The Earth has been going through massive temperature swings for millions of years on a scale that dwarfs any of the anthropogenic theories,” Munchmeyer said. “Mankind’s contribution can only be so tiny as to not be detected.”

Having already won the support of Albemarle County Supervisor Ken Boyd, the JATP hopes to garner enough support to overturn the “Orwellian" measures at the Albemarle County Board of Supervisors meeting on June 8.

On the other side, such a move would represent “a triumph of paranoia over common sense" to Jack Marshall, president of Advocates for a Sustainable Albemarle Population. "Only someone whose world view is entirely distorted by ideology," says Marshall, "would find objectionable the effort to build a sustainable community.”

Both Thorpe and Marshall were set to speak at the June 8 Supervisors meeting. 

209 comments

What a bunch of nonsense. Seriously.

Yep, the elite who own and control the government are managing to persuad a lot of idiots to accept enslavement in order to save the Earth. Of course, it's not to save the Earth, it's to make enslaving the human race easier to do, by appealing to the human race's base instincts, by using highly sophisticated propaganda (see "elaborate fraud") originating in ancient Babylon, developed over thousands of years, and used for thousands of years. Everything they do to shut down, carve up, and wolf down this nation's wealth is to save the Earth from humans. At least there are a few people around here who still have a functioning brain.

I forgot to mention that the Babylonian system of propaganda has also been kept secret from the masses for thousands of years, meaning that not only is it not taught in public schools in America, it's existence isn't even admitted or mentioned.

I wish the tea party folks would do something substantive to challenge the increasing costs of living in Charlottesville and Albemarle.

Soon our water and sewer bills will be more than our property taxes, but you never hear them challenge the big dam plan.

Why ?

Our water rates are already second highest in the state for cities our size and not a peep about building a $ 140 - 200 million dollar dam and pipeline we probably don't need . And not a peep about letting the best water supply reservoir we have fill with silt instead of dredging that first before spending a dime on all new infrastructure.

If they care about local decisions that are not sustainable --why not this ?

Please tea party folks explain this to the rest of us so we can understand if you walk the walk and if we want to follow you down the path of a lower cost, less environmentally damaging way to use our local resources and save local citizens real dollars.

To Jack Marshall: Take a look at your ideological sustainability promotion before you help sell out one of the last bits of remaining American prosperity. We could have gas for sixty cents a gallon at the pump and it would come entirely from America and it wouldn't do a goddamn thing to warm the Earth, if you and people like you weren't DETERMINED TO BE SLAVES.

Local Resident, I've peeped plenty about the HAARP and CHEMTRAIL AND AEROSOL SPRAYING WEATHER MODIFICATION THAT HAS BEEN DELIBERATELY CAUSING DROUGHTS AND FLOODS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD INCLUDING RIGHT HERE IN ALBEMARLE COUNTY, BUT NOT MANY FOLKS FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE THE POWER TO STOP THAT SO THEY TALK ABOUT DAMS AND TREES INSTEAD. I DO BELIEVE I HAVE THE POWER TO STOP WEATHER MODIFICATION IF I TRY HARD ENOUGH TO WAKE MY FELLOW AMERICANS UP TO IT AND RALLY THEM TO JOIN THE CAUSE TO DO SOMETHING PROACTIVE.

Headline
"Tea Party opposes sustainability propaganda"
Jack M and his lemmings need to go one after the other off a cliff that would help sustain the rest of us that use common sense.

So... was John Walton Giuliano on the panel? I mean, the dude's conspiracy theories are about as credible as theirs.

Money, money, and money. Did I mention money? Let us not forget there is money to be made.

Global warming caused by cows farting.
Own a home with no credit check.
Dotcoms are worth billions. (on paper.)
Think about the children!
Penny stocks are your best bet.
Carbon taxes will lower emissions.
There is no manipulation of oil prices.
Plastic bags are better than paper.
Coal is EVIL!!!!!!!!
We all need to buy new lightbulbs with mercury.
You really do need that new cell phone.
Act now and we will take one full payment off the price.

Now let us talk about lemmings.

One good example of this envrionmentalism run amok is the hassle that people seem to be going through to put a campground along the river in howardsville. albemarel joined in trying to preserve the bay and is trampling on landowners rights in the process. What possible harm can a hayfield tuned into a campground cause the th envrionemnt? People goiing to the bathroom outside? If the floodwaters ever come up that high there are MILLIONS of gallons a minute (that would be like flushing a toilet almost 550,000 times in a minute) and they are worrried about the contents of an outhouse contaminating the water?

Under current law if youi are within 500 feet of an intermittent STREAM you cannot pave your driveway because youi cannot create an "impervious" surface. The problem is an intermittenst stream is the ditch in front of most houses. The law is on the books but not enforced YET. So be very careful how far you go joining these Federal programs that tempt you with money to circumvent the Constituion. Once you take it the fine print says if you change your mind you must give it ALL back. (even 20 years later)

Why are tea party people often 400 pounds?

"We could have gas for sixty cents a gallon at the pump and it would come entirely from America and it wouldn't do a goddamn thing to warm the Earth."

Wrong: http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/aeo_2009analysispapers/aongr.html

Wrong: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7191 (take your pick)

Wrong: http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2010/02/17/205516/an-illustrated-guide-to-...

I mean, just wrong. As are the talking points offered up by the JATP. Publicly costly opportunism disguised as public concern.

If only Carole could use her energy to keep away from the fridge..

Thank goodness some people are catching on!

Somehow I suspect that LOTS of tax dollars will be going to pay for Ms. Thorpe's unhealthy lifestyle choices if they aren't already. If she doesn't value taking care of herself, little surprise that she doesn't care about taking care of anything greater than herself.

catching on to that buffet train woooooo wooooooooo!

irun_too: "If only Carole could use her energy to keep away from the fridge.."

That's despicable. I find that life has a way of dealing with the intolerant by saddling them with the very thing they are most intolerant of. Don't take your legs for granted. If only you could use your energy trying to figure out what kindness and compassion are . . .

What's the value in joking about her weight?

I kind of have a feeling we'll be seeing some "Deleted by moderator"s on this thread.

Bill, we are all interconnected. Your driveway next to a stream will put oil and grease from your car in my part of the stream downriver. Environmentalism is hardly running amok. On the contrary, the few gains that have been made in the past decades are threatened by short-sighted, willfully ignorant people who think they can keep consuming resources with no consequences. I just don't know where to begin . . . their--and your--arguments are so poorly reasoned and without evidence.

Bill, here's a pretty straightforward Wikipedia entry on negative externalities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Negative

For a year or so I generously gave this Carol Thorpe thing the benefit of my doubt,--that somewhere, deeply hidden beneath all that...cliche, misthought, Palin-speak, was some genuine or sincere desire to help our county and this locale.
No more. With this "elaborate fraud" crap, she proves herself not an exception, but an example of the t.p. rule we must accept and ACT on; thye all are not worthy of participation in our democracy. We must stamp them out, prove them wrong, talk down to them, to the point of holding up large charts and DEMANDING that they explain themselves, rather than continue to allow them their voice, belittling this democracy, attracting attention by placating the clueless and ignorant, and using their celebrity and attention to fire false resentment and anger. She's the fraud. Her TYPE are the enemy, costing us big-time.
Go away, Carole. You're done here.

Dawg how many bathrooms in your house?

Oh, and who the heck thinks they can use the name, Bill Marshall" in lower case?
Speak up, "environmentalism run amok," you dolt.

Robert? ron is more like it

“Mankind’s contribution can only be so tiny as to not be detected.”

I wonder if she's ever seen a picture of the Earth at night from space? Mankind's contribution is certainly detectable.

Besides, who cares if global warming is real or not? What's wrong with taking better care of the planet we live on? Why is that not an admirable goal regardless of the "truth" of global warming?

Also, when are the teabaggers going to sack up and pull all of their kids out of our socialistic, government run public schools? I'm sick of dealing with their children's ignorance.

Maybe if she was thin enough to actually move around in nature and experience the beauty of Earth she would appreciate it more.

/deleted by moderator :-)

Also, when are the teabaggers going to sack up and pull all of their kids out of our socialistic, government run public schools? I'm sick of dealing with their children's ignorance.

We (Tea Party Patriots) need to just pull our money out, then you goverment union bums will have to work for a living, you would be on food stamps in a month.

You're on the right track, C-ville Delight. In fact, why stop at pulling your money out of schools? Take every dime of your "unfair" tax dollars and go start another country. Pleeeaaase. You are extremists -- the worst possible kind. Since you find so much WRONG with our "government" right now, why don't you just leave? You all are too delusional to realize that you are a MINORITY. A nasty and spiteful MINORITY.

Moderates like me (that's right, I am NOT a liberal) do not want you here anymore.

Have a nice day and let me know if you need any help packing.

Yeah, Nick, I must be wrong about this country having more oil and more Sweet Crude on tap than any other country in the world, cause that would really suck if I was right and we gave it all up for a damned lie. Lindsay Williams must have been wrong about Ken Fromm and the big oil companies getting together to classify all the oil in Montana, the Dakotas, and Prudhoe Bay back in the 1970's. Seas upon seas of oil, which they discovered, drilled, tapped, shut down completely, and then classified. Then they agreed to buy oil from the Sauds in exchange for them buying our debt with the plan to double cross them once oil has hit a mega-high and then open up the seas we've been sitting on while we anorexically starve ourselves for oil for thirty five years. By the way, there's no such thing as fossil fuels. Just another lie the elite made up to go along with the artificial scarcity peak oil scam. Oil doesn't come from dinosaurs, it seeps up from the mantle where the methane is under extreme pressure and forms hydrocarbons, it's always seeping up, it's renewable, we're sitting on literal seas of it. But just imagine what kind of self-preserving genius-created propaganda you could purchase from think tanks, just imagine the media congolmorates you could buy to push that bull if you, like John "competition is a sin" D. Rockefeller, managed to take control of something about as scarce as water and tricked people into paying five dollars a gallon for it. No, Nick, you're the one who's wrong, mistaken, incorrect, misled, brainwashed, take your pick, I'm still rooting for you to wake up someday soon!

Yeah, Nick, I must be wrong about this country having more oil and more Sweet Crude on tap than any other country in the world, cause that would really suck if I was right and we gave it all up for a damned lie. Lindsay Williams must have been wrong about Ken Fromm and the big oil companies getting together to classify all the oil in Montana, the Dakotas, and Prudhoe Bay back in the 1970's. Seas upon seas of oil, which they discovered, drilled, tapped, shut down completely, and then classified. Then they agreed to buy oil from the Sauds in exchange for them buying our debt with the plan to double cross them once oil has hit a mega-high and then open up the seas we've been sitting on while we anorexically starve ourselves for oil for thirty five years. By the way, there's no such thing as fossil fuels. Just another lie the elite made up to go along with the artificial scarcity peak oil scam. Oil doesn't come from dinosaurs, it seeps up from the mantle where the methane is under extreme pressure and forms hydrocarbons, it's always seeping up, it's renewable, we're sitting on literal seas of it. But just imagine what kind of self-preserving genius-created propaganda you could purchase from think tanks, just imagine the media congolmorates you could buy to push that bull if you, like John "competition is a sin" D. Rockefeller, managed to take control of something about as scarce as water and tricked people into paying five dollars a gallon for it. No, Nick, you're the one who's wrong, mistaken, incorrect, misled, brainwashed, take your pick, I'm still rooting for you to wake up someday soon!

Mr. Giuliano, what is your professional scientific background?

"We (Tea Party Patriots) need to just pull our money out, then you goverment union bums will have to work for a living"

This perspective is born directly from a misunderstanding about how money flows in our economy. You (presumably) work in the private sector, I work in the public sector. You earn money from all other sorts of people (maybe even me!), and the money that you earn (money from private-private or public-private transactions) goes into investments, savings, purchases at prices that you are willing to pay, and taxes. The money that I earn (transfers from the public sector in amounts representing the value of the collective services and goods that I produce) goes into investments, savings, purchases at prices that I am willing to pay, and taxes.

Now, this would not make sense if you don't understand (1) that there actually *are* goods and services that are public in nature--i.e., they won't be supplied, or will be under-supplied, by the private sector--and (2) that those goods and services need to be paid for through taxes (look up the "free-rider problem"). You are more than welcome to debate whether or not, say, education should be privatized, but stop assuming that the only "production," the only "work" being done is in the private sector.

cville delight,

By all means, pull out the pathetic few dollars you actually pay in taxes. Just be sure and tell all your fellow TP vets to stop receiving their benefits while they are at it, get off of medicare AND medicaid, and stop using all public bridges and roads. No trips the UVA, as that is Federally funded. As is most initial drug research, so you can't use big pharma either. Drop your health insurance, because I don't want to pay higher premiums to cover your grossly obese butts, just like Carol's.

In short, stop being the free loaders you are.

The basic elite viewpoint is that it's OK to lie to people about man made global warming because it's an essential part of a control structure that in their view is essential to protecting the environment. Having people believe in sustainability makes it easier to control their population through poverty and destruction of prosperity through deindustrialization, which stupid people will put up with if they believe it's essential to save the earth. And it's not hard to make them stupid with the shots and the gmo and the fluoride, I believe it was Bertrand Russell who said "through diet, injections and injunctions we will make a revolt of the proles against the oligarchs as unthinkable as a revolt of sheep against the practice of eating mutton". The folks at the top pushing sustainability are doing it to allow land grabbing, monopolizing, and subjugation of the population by many incremental baby steps, which if taken at the right times are never enough to cause outright revolt, whereas if more than a few were taken at once we'd all be marching on the capitol. They're also the ones pushing gmo which threatens the entire genetic integrity of all life on earth. They're also the ones spraying deadly aluminum and barium particulates into the atmosphere and ordering the use of depleted uranium. They don't care about the environment they care about power and full spectrum dominance.

The basic elite viewpoint is that it's OK to lie to people about man made global warming because it's an essential part of a control structure that in their view is essential to protecting the environment. Having people believe in sustainability makes it easier to control their population through poverty and destruction of prosperity through deindustrialization, which stupid people will put up with if they believe it's essential to save the earth. And it's not hard to make them stupid with the shots and the gmo and the fluoride, I believe it was Bertrand Russell who said "through diet, injections and injunctions we will make a revolt of the proles against the oligarchs as unthinkable as a revolt of sheep against the practice of eating mutton". The folks at the top pushing sustainability are doing it to allow land grabbing, monopolizing, and subjugation of the population by many incremental baby steps, which if taken at the right times are never enough to cause outright revolt, whereas if more than a few were taken at once we'd all be marching on the capitol. They're also the ones pushing gmo which threatens the entire genetic integrity of all life on earth. They're also the ones spraying deadly aluminum and barium particulates into the atmosphere and ordering the use of depleted uranium. They don't care about the environment they care about power and full spectrum dominance.

Thank you, Old Timer.

I have often said to my neighbor, who constantly gripes about "all the taxes he pays" (which are comparatively LOW to other countries I have visited and lived in), that he should use his OWN money to build the road leading up to his house. He should also use his OWN money to get his mail delivered, and his OWN money to send his kids to school at $7k per year apiece (pretty cheap compared to private I might add). And if his house catches fire, he needs to put it out himself for gosh sakes.

What the Tea Party really represents is the inability to share and work in cooperation. See, that makes them paranoid, as the sustainability issue clearly illustrates. Remember the kids in the sandbox who didn't want to share? Yep, folks. This is what they look like all grown up.

And Mr. Giuliano, are you capable of answering a simple question? What is your scientific education, training and experience?

I wish Palin would come down here and remind people how Jack Jouett warned the British that Jefferson was armed and had guns and that Jefferson wouldn't be given up his guns cause Jefferson was for gun rights..

And he was ringing a bell when he did that, wasn't he, Jack? :-)

Caroline, if I say I'm not a professional scientist, does that mean you won't bow down to me and and lick my boots? What if I said I was a professional con artist? Would you believe me?

Mmm, well you seem to know a lot about the nonexistence of fossil fuels an such....I am just looking for some actual science to back up your statements. What is your understanding of the process by which petroleum is created?

None of us would ever had heard of Thomas Jefferson had he chosen not to enslave over six hundred negroe men, women, and children. It was because he enslaved all those human beings that he had the time to write all those wonderful declarations of freedom and proclamations of liberty.

If you want to know more Caroline, go on the internet use google and type in "oil not from dinosaurs" or "oil created by methane under pressure". I'm not sure you do want to know more, though. I think perhaps you'd rather know something that makes you feel more connected to Barney and his friends.

Way to stay on the topic as usual, Giuliano!

John, sounds like a good story--but I appreciate evidence over compelling plot lines.

The petroleum industry is fighting for more permits--even as they sit on current ones--and has every incentive in the world to give the impression that there are seas of oil out there. They don't. Is that because they (who, again?) already have the land and they're just twiddling their thumbs until the perfect time? I'd love to meet an oil executive who has 40+ years worth of that kind of patience.

Alternative energy is becoming cost competitive (http://bloom.bg/kzMaHT) and marginal costs of oil production are steadily rising as we tap deeper wells throughout the world. When will the revelation take place, pray tell?

Google it?

Seriously?

Oh man....no, no. You seem not to understand the protocol for proving or disproving scientific theorem. You put forth comment on the nonexistence of fossil fuels. In response I asked you to provide supporting information for those comments.

I am waiting for that information, John. You can cite specific studies and articles or provide links. Your choice.

John Walton, you clearly are a man with tremendous insight. How is it that you were not invited to speak at UVA's recent commencement exercises? Such a missed opportunity to enlighten the youth!

I have no problem with incessant babbling as long as there is some fact behind it.

Still waiting...

Caroline, you don't want to know more, you're not asking me for the info in hopes of learning, you're asking in hopes of being offered an opportunity to further discredit it. I know the game, I'm not playing that one today. Use startpage if you don't like google.

LOL. There are some NUTS in here.

Caroline, it seems like you believe I have just blasphemed the Most High by questioning the existence of fossil fuels and that speaks more to what I'm trying to say than any website I could pull up in ten seconds. I already explained it. Methane is a gas, except deep down in the mantle under extreme pressure where it stays liquid despite being very hot so it chemically bonds with the other elements down there and when pushed up by heat it stays gooey instead of evaporating right away. It's not rocket science, I shouldn't even have to explain it it's so elementary.

Caroline, it seems like you believe I have just blasphemed the Most High by questioning the existence of fossil fuels and that speaks more to what I'm trying to say than any website I could pull up in ten seconds. I already explained it. Methane is a gas, except deep down in the mantle under extreme pressure where it stays liquid despite being very hot so it chemically bonds with the other elements down there and when pushed up by heat it stays gooey instead of evaporating right away. It's not rocket science, I shouldn't even have to explain it it's so elementary.

I was just a lone nut once.

I was just a lone nut once.

"Caroline, you don't want to know more, you're not asking me for the info in hopes of learning, you're asking in hopes of being offered an opportunity to further discredit it. I know the game, I'm not playing that one today. Use startpage if you don't like google." ~ John Walton Giuliano

Translation: "I don't really have any facts to back up what I'm saying. I am too big of a coward to admit that I don't really have any reasonable information, therefore I will retreat to the comfort of my keyboard and continue to spout of incessant nonsense."

"Caroline, you don't want to know more, you're not asking me for the info in hopes of learning, you're asking in hopes of being offered an opportunity to further discredit it. I know the game, I'm not playing that one today. Use startpage if you don't like google." ~ John Walton Giuliano

Translation: "I don't really have any facts to back up what I'm saying. I am too big of a coward to admit that I don't really have any reasonable information, therefore I will retreat to the comfort of my keyboard and continue to spout off incessant nonsense."

Heh, didn't mean to post that 3 times...that was the Hook's web.

But it sure is fun to read over and over and over.

Truly, Mr. G. I enjoy a good spirited debate and have no problem at all admitting when I'm wrong if there is factual information that does so. Unfortunately, you are lacking in both regards.

Please seek the help that you need. And while you're in there maybe take a science class or two?

Sheesh. Why did I waste any time on this?

Wait a minute... where did Mr. G's post about the nonexistence of methane gas go? And his statement about the earth's mantle not being that hot?

Oh well, good night and see everyone at the Sustainability hearing tomorrow.

What part don't you believe is factual about it being hot down in the mantle of the earth, there being lots of pressure from the interaction of heat and rock, that gasses can remain liquids even at extremely hot temperatures if there is extreme pressure, that hot liquids dissolve things and when they do the structure of the liquid changes also. These are all facts. Methane does indeed stay liquid way down deep, it is indeed hot enough to dissolve minerals, it does indeed remain liquid when the pressure drops after heat pushes it towards the surface due to the bonding to metals and other elements, and we do have renewable oil thanks to that process. Imagine how dumb you'd feel if you admitted that.

JWG, you can repeat that as often as you like but without scientific sources to back it up it means nothing. I've searched Google scholar and found nothing to confirm what you are saying. If you can point to scientific evidence of your methane to oil theory we'd all love to see it.

All you are describing is the process by which methane forms. Big f'ing deal. Are you saying that we should turn exclusively to methane for our fuel needs?

No, Ranlome, he is describing the process of methane formation and its status at various temperature. I guess I am just not sure WHY he is describing it.

Further searching leads to believe he is talking about abiotic petroleum origin which has been debunked since the 50's. Here's the wikipedia article but more thorough, scientific information can be found by searching Google Scholar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

I want to hear more from JWG about how the government secretly tapped, capped and subsequently concealed the existence of "seas upon seas" of domestic oil. Please tell us more. I think you might have some folks here convinced!

I also want to know the names of particular elites who have been lying to me about global warming and shooting us all up with GMO and flouride to make us sterile and compliant. How frightening!

Also, anything else that you could provide on plots to modify the weather would be extremely helpful.

Thanks! I am learning so much here.

Let's just say he is talking methane. You don't have to "Google" very far to see why this option is not being chosen as a primary source for our energy needs.

Caroline, he's describing it because "[fossil fuels is] just another lie the elite made up to go along with the artificial scarcity peak oil scam."

Oh. Why did I spend so much time on this today? I have no personal grudge against any member of any affiliated party (or unaffiliated party). Let's say for a moment that global warming is a scam and we will never run out of fuel.

As far as the sustainability issue in Albemarle, efforts thus far using the information garnered from ICLEI (and many, many, many other sources) as part of the Cool Counties initiative have saved the community an estimated $400,000 in just a few years. I fail to see the controversy in THAT.

I tell you what, I feel kind of sorry for Boyd. He has hitched his wagon to the wrong star with this one. Not a particularly intelligent political move, as the national landscape has already shown us.

*Interesting how many posters refuse to engage in a debate about what can be done locally to save money as Local Resident and Bill Marshall have. I will respect those who are truly working to improve our community for the greater good of those who live here and to make it more affordable for all.

First and foremost sustainability means maintain and preserving what we have and only building new infrastructure if there is a proven need. Otherwise it is a waste of our money and our natural resources --I agree with LR -
Why aren't the tea party folks fighting for this principle in our town ?

Because they don't really want to solve problems, they want to create hysteria. Solving problems requires thought, research and ultimately, perhaps - compromise. That is NOT what this "party" is about.

Look at the Tea Party at the national level. Other than propagate fear-inducing buzzwords and anti-government soundbites, what have they actually DONE??

Nothing. Not. One. Thing.

While there was a Democratic majority in both the House and Senate AND a Democrat in the White House, the Tea Party:

1) Got "Cap and Trade" legislation killed in the Senate.
2) Got single-payer booted from ObamaCare.
3) Got Van Jones booted out.
4) Forced an entire summer of town halls and delayed ObamaCare significantly.
5) Won key Governorships in New Jersey and Virginia.
6) Defeated the Democratic majority in the House and snatched the Speaker's gavel from Pelosi's bony grip.
6) Halted passed of the DREAM Act

Since then...

7) Halted the DREAM Act again.
8) Forced Obama and the Democrats (Republicans too) into serious talk about cutting spending, reduce the debt, and hold the line on raising the debt ceiling.

It wasn't Republicans who did all of this. It was the Tea Party. Just wait until we take conservative control of BOTH houses of the Virginia Assembly in the fall :-)

The tea party is for idiots, self destructive idiots.

And what have they done to save resources locally ?

"It wasn't Republicans who did all of this. It was the Tea Party." ~ Feet to the Fire

So....Tea Party members aren't Republicans? Great, then they should run on their own ticket and not on the coattails of an existing party.

I say go for it. See you in 2012. :-)

"1) Got "Cap and Trade" legislation killed in the Senate."

Why are you against cap and trade?

"2) Got single-payer booted from ObamaCare."

Why are you against single payer?

"3) Got Van Jones booted out."

Why didn't you like Van?

"4) Forced an entire summer of town halls and delayed ObamaCare significantly."

Why is this a good thing?

"5) Won key Governorships in New Jersey and Virginia."

You sound happy about this...why?

"6) Defeated the Democratic majority in the House and snatched the Speaker's gavel from Pelosi's bony grip."

Ad Hominem vs. Pelosi...why don't you like her?

"6) Halted passed of the DREAM Act"

Not sure what you mean here with, "halted passed" but why don't you like the DREAM Act?"

Since then...

"7) Halted the DREAM Act again."

See number 6.

"8) Forced Obama and the Democrats (Republicans too) into serious talk about cutting spending, reduce the debt, and hold the line on raising the debt ceiling."

Please explain the best way to cut spending, reduce the debt, and hold the line on raising the debt ceiling.

Life on earth might be more sustainable if certain piggy people didn't eat twelve times their fair share. How about single payer for gluttons? I'm sorry, but if you are the size of Saturn, you don't get to lecture other people on self-restraint.

Another whole ten seconds. http://www.prisonplanet.com/salon-everything-youve-heard-about-fossil-fu.... Now go on and tell me this one isn't a NASA study, and I'll just refer you to the NASA study.

"Although the abiogenic hypothesis was accepted by many geologists in the former Soviet Union, it allegedly fell out of favor because it never made any useful prediction for the discovery of oil deposits. Most geologists now consider the abiogenic formation of petroleum scientifically unsupported. The abiogenic origin of petroleum has also recently been reviewed in detail by Glasby, who raises a number of objections, including that there is no direct evidence to date of abiogenic petroleum (liquid crude oil and long-chain hydrocarbon compounds)."

Ten second for you to find it, Mr. G., and about that long to debunk it. If you're basing your entire premise on Gold's theory, go for it.

(Pssst....and be careful not to fall off the edge of the earth. It's flat, ya see?)

You'll never believe it, but here's anotherhttp://www.infowars.com/articles/economy/peak_oil_index.htm

Oh, so now CIA run wikipedia is the definitive source. That took me one second to come up with, Caroline.

So what, the Wiki is all cited with sources.

And you're using "infowars" as your source, so I'd be careful in throwing stones.

Doesn't matter, you believe what you want to believe. I think it's nuts and so do most reasonable people. That will be my last interaction with you. Have a nice, methane-filled life, Mr. G.!

:-)

Why won't any tea party supporter answer my question please ?

I am looking for involvement of these people in real issues in our community . I thought that's what they were upset about - making the agenda all about global issues that our elected officials have no control about.

How about trying to stop the dam plan and fight to dredge our reservoir. Now that would save us money and resources .

Tell us where you stand on that issue, and please - hold the slogans and sound bites.

Facts aside, I wish the head of the local Tea Party wasn't a bloated Twinkie stuffer because I do agree who wants to watch someone who looks like that talk on and on for minutes. It hurts the reasonable message that global warming is all a sham by the Stalinist scientific community when all you can think about is the morbid curiosity about the average amount of stench she puts off on a warm summer's day.

As evidenced by the comments from Carole Thorpe and John Munchmeyer (who terms himself a "Libertarian"), the Tea Party folks are simply the contemporary Know-Nothings. Their ignorance, their misrepresentations, and their lack of credibility are palpable.

The “elaborate fraud” cited by Thorpe is not global warming (which is quite real and getting worse), but the Tea Party itself, and those who fund it for their own nefarious purposes.

The Tea Partyers are "conservatives," or maybe they're just conservative hypocrites. And conservatives today, mostly Republicans, keep insisting on their own fantasy-version of reality, which has proved economically and socially disastrous for the country. Ninety percent of the current national debt was incurred under conservative presidents pursuing supply-side economic policies that enriched the already-rich, squeezed the middle class, and increased poverty. Those who now tote the Tea Party label supported those presidents and policies...and now they want to blame somebody else for it. They refuse to acknowledge any information that doesn't fit their narrow, twisted ideology. They mislead, they distort, and they blatantly lie.

They get their "news" from Fox, a network that is "a giant soundstage created to mimic the look and feel of a news operation, cleverly camouflaging political propaganda as independent journalism...a study by the University of Maryland reveals, ignorance of Fox viewers actually increases the longer they watch the network." One doesn't need to listen to Carole Thorpe for very long to discern the truth of that University of Maryland study.

Their so-called "leaders" (Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck) incite fear and paranoia, and display a remarkable disdain for historical and scientific knowledge. As an editor for the conservative National Review explained it, conservatism “has undergone a shift toward demagoguery and hucksterism and is now ruled by those he called “the crazy-cons.”

For more on how conservatism has morphed into crazy-ism, read "CONFOUNDING FATHERS, The Tea Party’s Cold War roots," by historian Sean Wilentz:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/18/101018fa_fact_wilentz#ixzz...

Thank you, "democracy."
It appears online that "Mr." Thorpe is an engineer at N'rup-Grumman.
Talk about hypocrisy, living off of non-competitive, government contracts for make-work from fake wars.
Every year the base defense budget goes up. For what? All these enemies that want to destroy our way of life? Ask for details, and they'll site shoe-bombers, underpant-bombers, and copier cartridge bombers. ( That last one was shown to be another "plant.") These people are shameless.

It's unfortunate that the Tea Party has strayed from its focus on deficit spending, the national debt, etc. in order to embrace some pretty extreme conspiracy theories about ICLEI, sustainability, etc. Having said that, the personal remarks on this forum about Ms. Thorpe are disgusting and serve no purpose other than to undermine the credibility of those making them. We can disagree without being so disagreeable.

I agree that it actually undermines the points you are trying to make when you stoop to the level of personal attacks (and sorry, Mr. G. if I did so). But you are indeed correct, Mr. Norris -- the Tea Party has gone down the rabbit hole of extremist fringe issues and I'm afraid it is not going to serve them well in the long run.

Caroline or ron
Do you agree with the way this partisan "health care law” was passed? Do you agree with the wavers that have been given by the o administration? Do you agree with the dems in Mass that created a law so when Romney moved on he could not appoint a successor, but when kenedy passed the dems passed a law so the dem gov could appoint,(for the 51st vote on the above mentioned law). Stupak said after the passage “this wasn’t about health care this was about reparations" these are just a few examples of how dishonest the democratic/progressive party has become, do you agree with that?
Just answers please

The answer is simple - we have elected officials who vote either in the affirmative or the negative on the matters that come before them. That is their job and that is what they are paid to do. Prior to making their votes, there is background and discussion presented on each bill that intends to inform their decisions.

In each instance you describe, the legislation was passed in accordance with Constitutional law by a bi-partisan Congress and/or state assembly. You ask if I agree with "the way" the health care law was passed. Well I would have to say YES because you have essentially asked whether I agree with the process by which laws are passed in the United States at the state and federal levels.

The legislation was proposed and received enough votes to become law. Last time I checked, that's how bills become law. Do things always turn out the way I want them to? No, I do not. Am I outraged occasionally by certain bills that become law? Yes, I am.

There is a difference between objections to OUTCOME and objections to PROCESS, and that seems to be where Tea Partiers get confused. I am truly sorry if you don't like the outcome of a particular piece of legislation. Welcome to America, C-ville Delight. It's a nation built on compromise.

@DaveNorris: It's the new civility of the left.

Typical lefty, dance around the questions, spew a mouthful of garbage.

Ha! Sorry it was over your head, C-ville delight. I answered your questions. Perhaps you are just not bright enough to see that. But I'm not all that surprised. Try reading it again...sloooowwwwlly. There ya go! Keep working at it. Maybe have a friend help you interpret. See, the answer's right in there!

And listen to the all the stereotyping in here about 'the left.' I am not on the left at all, but again you are probably not smart enough to see that. I have voted for both Republicans AND Democrats in my years as a voter and will continue to do so on a candidate by candidate basis.

I just don't like ill-informed idiots, no matter what side they're on.

Jah, got to give you a hat tip for that response. My thoughts exactly. It's easy to say what the Tea Party has done without deliberating on the value of its accomplishments. Anyone want to debate the economics of cap and trade and single payer? Anyone want to explain why you hate Nancy Pelosi so much? Anyone want to explain why the Dream Act is unAmerican? Anyone want to discuss who is to blame for our current budget woes, and debate targeting unemployment vs. short-term federal deficit spending?

@Caroline: I wasn't referring to you. I give no quarter to idiots either. People that cite infowars as a credible news source? Naaaaah. People that believe the government is some sort of sercet conspiracy? Naaaaaah. Go ahead and mock them deservedly.

It would seem that someone on this comments board has been divulging all of out secrets. The government mind-control experts have been notified, and the black helicopters are on their way. Bwah-hah-hah-hah-hah...

I'm confused Albe-boy, I was responding to C-ville Delight.

Either way this is not where I want to be in this discussion.

Bringing it all back home, ICLEI is simply a guiding set of principles toward better use of resources. It is no more threatening than the FDA food pyramid (I guess it's now the 'food plate,' but I digress). What makes me sad and really, really concerns me is the absolute paranoia expressed by the Tea Party locally and others who are apparently terrified of the "foreign intrusion" that ICLEI represents.

Really people? Do you think we are so weak that using a software that many other localities have benefited from (including the City and the University) is going to topple our entire nation? I for one do not. I guess others can decide for themselves how afraid they are of information.

DaveNorris - if thats who you are,

I tend to dislike ad hominem attacks, as you are suggesting, but there are times when our personal choices stand out in such dramatic conflict with what we say we believe. For all that the TP likes to claim its about freedom from government and taking personal responsibility, interviews demonstrate they are all about living off of things like medicare, medicaid, SSI, and a number of other taxpayer subsidized programs. IOW, they are only too happy to be subsidized by others. They just resent paying for programs that might benefit people that don't look like them. It's only minorities that get 'welfare'. Whatever they have can't possibly be 'welfare', or socialism.

Unfortunately, Mrs Thorpe's figure suggests individual life choices that might be in conflict with TP values. After all, anyone who is on her group health care policy is subsidizing her lifestyle. I doubt she could get an individual policy these days, were it not for Obama's healthcare act, though the price she pays would be very high. Of course, were she to step up and be a real Libertarian, and say she doesn't believe in health insurance at all - as it is socialized medicine run for profit - and that she was willing to pay for all her health care costs out of her own pocket, she might get an entirely different reaction.

Or perhaps, the TP just needs to choose folks that really live their claimed lifestyle as representatives.

Sustainability is a good thing. It means we will not deplete natural resources and will pass healthy air and water onto future generations.

Efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions provide numerous other benefits, such as reducing electric bills, providing more transportation options, and saving money for County taxpayers. With so many benefits, common-sense dictates that the Albemarle Board of Supervisors pursue the Cool Counties pledge.

Coordinated planning by the County and City through the TJPDC grant makes sense, especially considering the regional challenges facing our community. With the budget cuts and staff reductions the County has undergone, it would be irresponsible to reject expert assistance especially in matters of such importance.

Please quit being so reasonable, Dolce! ;-)

You are articulating exactly what this is about. There has already been a measured $400,000 in savings under the Cool Counties initiative which (surprise!) was implemented at the local level by local officials, local businesses and local citizens.

Funny...I don't remember a bunch of international hooded ICLEI officials sneaking down here under cover of darkness with their crazy ideas about running less laundry and washing cars a bit less often.

Paranoia, the destroyer.

Nice talking points, please explain.
• How will this pledge reduce emissions?
• How will it reduce electric bills?
• How will it provide more transportation?
• How could this pledge possibly reduce county taxes?
Solar energy cost over a dollar a kilowatt to produce, coal 6 cents.

Since the answers to those questions have already been presented to the County, why don't you give them a ring and ask for the report on the savings realized to date by participation in Cool Counties? Both U.Va. and the City also have these reports.

Simple measures like changing the roof material used at the county building have meant that a) carbon emissions have been reduced (see, electricity emits CO2) and b) their electric bills have been reduced (you can call and ask for this information, it is public). And guess what? That means county residents pay less in taxes for those utilities! Private businesses have also adopted these measures.

It's really simply stuff, honestly. Nothing to be afraid of. As far as reducing transportation costs, it's too much to type here.

READ. THE. REPORT.

Albeboy = cville delight?

1) white roofs are cooler in summer and cooler in winter.. the net savings is not as dramatic as you think... now flipflop roof of black to white might be worth looking into..

2) If you are not afarid of the federal governments reach (democrat or republican) you need to read more...

http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/08/no-really-swat-team-raids-hous

When was it claimed that there would be "dramatic" savings? The whole point is collective savings and efficiencies.

And while I appreciate the link you shared, Bill Marshall (actually you are the third person today who has brought it to my attention), it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Citing anecdotal incidents of other egregious government actions does not bolster or undermine this specific argument. I'm not going to take the "all government is bad and out to get us" bait.

Paranoia, the destroyer. Reprise.

...and who said anything about "white rooftops"? I simply said they changed their roof material:

http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/pview.php?id=650

C'mon guys. Read a little bit about what is ACTUALLY happening versus what the hysteria has led you to believe. Decide for yourselves.

The tea party is generally against all national laws on greenhouse gas (because global warming is a hoax etc. Are they against all national evironmental laws such as water standards that have nothing to do with global warming etc.? Are they for abolishing the EPA entirely or they just against all national carbon laws but for other national laws such as water standards?

And just so I put my money where my mouth is...I think the county might have done their roof before signing onto Cool Counties.

State Farm Insurance did their green roof afterward, in tandem with the Cool Counties initiative.

Public-private collaboration and common sense. What a wonderful world this could be.

Oh caroline........
A single ply roofing system (least expensive) 80 mil thick cost between 10 and 15 dollars a sq' multiply that by...... including the police department... I'd say 120,000 sq' that’s 1.2 you may get 25 to 30 years you would have to reduce the electricity cost by 40k a year to break even, I would bet the county paid over $25 per sq'.
And guess what roofing system are made of petroleum, do you know how many trees you could feed with all that CO2 produced

The community has already realized almost $1/2 million in savings here. What part of that don't you get?

I know you don't read, but how about doing the math?

NOBODY says all government is bad... the most they say that as a rule smaller government is better. It is undeniable that most tasks can be performed more efficently in the private sector. They can build an entire wal-mart including the parking lot striping and have a grand opening before the government is half way through the deaccelration lane to turn into it.

As for incedental examples.. the problem is they are non stop...

The larger centralized government makes localities dependent on them for funding and then beholden to them and their national agenda. A good example was no child left behind. A mandate with no funding but a mandate nonetheless. If states had refused all federal subsidies would have stopped.

Now China wants to buy america...

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/china-wants-to-construct-a-50-...

Dave Norris: John Walton Guiliano is making good points. His links to Alex Jones' site provide a window into a much better guide to a present world crisis than anything that the mainstream media or political mafia parties might provide. Why? Because we are living through the completion of the transformation of the Republic and the world at large by the barely veiled criminal plutocrat elite, by means of false flag, black ops and an still unfolding sequel to their 9/11 masterpiece in terms of an economic war on humanity at large with all manner of democracy and sustainability slogans. Take a good look at the conventional explanations for why we have been forcibly bankrupted by the War of Terror or for the Federal Reserve policy or Wall Street's crushing hegemony over the real economy and you find a cavalcade of lies.

Our choice, if we are to be informed sufficiently such that we might survive the ongoing controlled disintegration of civilization at large: rejection of mainstream media and parties and the embrace of alternative media and parties for the truth about weather modification, weather warfare, chemtrails, the danger of fluoridation, vaccinations, and much of conventional medicene in general, biowarfare - to include the recent German e coli outbreak, HAARP and exotic weaponry, the planned North American Union, the coming cashless society, the emerging police state here in the USA, and the reality that the elite meet in secret [Bilderberger Group, Trilateral Commission] and have major plans for eliminating the present nation-state system and setting up global rule of ten regional unions.

The thing that bothers me about the discussion on here is its overabundance of other issues that are somehow deemed to be "related" just because they involve "the government."

I would love to just get through a few back and forth conversations that didn't bring in everything but the kitchen sink. So would it be OK if we talked about the subject of the article: "Tea Party Opposes Sustainability Agenda"?

Is that too much to ask?

ICLEI is a useful tool to help Albemarle County determine what’s driving our greenhouse gas emissions and energy use locally. It also helps us learn about emissions-reduction strategies that other communities are using - gain information without reinventing the wheel.

Canceling our inexpensive membership will only handicap the County’s ability to achieve its emissions-reduction goals and will not provide anything in return.

Let's embrace the future - and clean up for our children - without too much sacrifice. Seems so reasonable to me. Maybe that's the problem?

I am proud that Albemarle County unanimously made the Cool Counties pledge to reduce our local greenhouse gas emissions. My family and I want Albemarle County to be an environmental leader, because local leadership is desperately needed if we are to effectively attempt to change the course of climate change.

The science is clear - to be ostriches hiding our heads in the sand is just dumb.

@Albedelight???:

No. I would never call myself a "Tea Party Patriot." Ugh.

Dolce, Tea Partiers and the like a) don't believe there is much to clean up (in fact most discard the greenhouse gas theory entirely); and b) believe that the local community can handle any issues on its own. They are not perceiving ICLEI as a tool, they are perceiving it as a threat.

Earth's Changing Climate: http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1219

A series of lectures on the science by a wellj-educated science educator. The lectures are fascinating - look for the audio CD discs at your local public (tax-supported) library for "free" or purchase/download it for $19.95. Get educated on the topic - don't "google" or depend on sound bites - learn about it so you can vote in an informed manner.

Yes, I know it's perceived as a threat - I just want to voice that not all of us are sheep following the herd. Some of us do vote - some of us do wish for progress (and not just progress that brings "big box" development. Some of us are educated. Some of us do want to leave the earth in a better condition than we found it or made it in our lifetimes. Some of us DO NOT resent paying taxes. Some of us prefer that to the alternative. Some of us are watching the Albemarle County Supervisors and are judging them on their words and actions. Some of us are ready for a paradigm shift.

I just hope that whatever people do, they proceed as informed - not paranoid. Some of the comments made at county meetings are just unbelievable. The misinformation and fear out there is what's REALLY the frightening thing.

Fear (paranoia) is a powerful motivator.

and some of us have seen firsthand how crazy government regulations can get...

Charlottesville is inthe Chesapeake Bay watershed... under current LAW you are not allowed to even build a sidwalk with 500 feet of an "intermittent stream" (ie a drainage ditch that funnels rainwater into a creek)(even a mile away) without an Envrionmental Impact study. Charlottesville chooses not to enforce the LAW but it is there and at some point some nut job will sue the city to force them to enforce the law and YOUR life will be directly affected. So the sidewalk will cost 400 dollars and the study will cost 1000. That is the tip of the iceberg.

Under current LAW if you have an accident that spills more than two gallons of any petroleum based product in a car accident it is considered hazardous material and in DC and Fairfax they will call the Hazardous Response team and send you a bill.

The Federal government is too powerful because they get localities addicted with grants and then make them do what THEY want.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with those laws - I'm glad they are on the books. The Chesapeake Bay is a rare and wonderful treasure - once it's gone it cannot be brought back. We've abused it far too long. The pendulum should swing back the other way. And if you spill more than 2 gallons of any petroleum based product - it is a hazardous material and you should be prepared to pay to clean up your mess. If you don't - who should? Future generations when costs are even higher? When the stakes are even higher?

"The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Prof. Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
lead author of many IPCC reports

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The data doesn't matter. We're not basing our recommendations
on the data. We're basing them on the climate models.”
- Prof. Chris Folland,
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The models are convenient fictions
that provide something very useful.”
- Dr David Frame,
climate modeler, Oxford University

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I believe it is appropriate to have an 'over-representation' of the facts
on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience."
- Al Gore,
Climate Change activist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It doesn't matter what is true,
it only matters what people believe is true."
- Paul Watson,
co-founder of Greenpeace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen."
- Sir John Houghton,
first chairman of IPCC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The only way to get our society to truly change is to
frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and
spiritual challenge to all of humanity. It is also our greatest
opportunity to lift Global Consciousness to a higher level."
- Al Gore,
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are on the verge of a global transformation.
All we need is the right major crisis..."
- David Rockefeller,
Club of Rome executive member

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Humanity is sitting on a time bomb. If the vast majority of the
world's scientists are right, we have just ten years to avert a
major catastrophe that could send our entire planet's climate system
into a tail-spin of epic destruction involving extreme weather, floods,
droughts, epidemics and killer heat waves beyond anything we have
ever experienced - a catastrophe of our own making."
- Al Gore,
An Inconvenient Truth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are getting close to catastrophic tipping points,
despite the fact that most people barely notice the warming yet."
- Dr James Hansen,
NASA researcher

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"By the end of this century climate change will reduce the human
population to a few breeding pairs surviving near the Arctic."
- Sir James Lovelock,
Revenge of Gaia

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Climate Change will result in a catastrophic global sea level
rise of seven meters. That's bye-bye most of Bangladesh,
Netherlands, Florida and would make London the new Atlantis."
- Greenpeace International

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"This planet is on course for a catastrophe.
The existence of Life itself is at stake."
- Dr Tim Flannery,
Principal Research Scientist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Coal makes us sick. Oil makes us sick. It's global warming.
It's ruining our country. It's ruining our world."
- Harry Reid,
U.S. Senate majority leader

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Climate Change is the greatest threat that
human civilization has ever faced."
- Angela Merkel,
German Chancellor

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Climate change is real. Not only is it real, it's here,
and its effects are giving rise to a frighteningly new
global phenomenon: the man-made natural disaster."
- Barack Obama,
US President

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We simply must do everything we can in our power to
slow down global warming before it is too late."
- Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Governor of California

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Climate change should be seen as the
greatest challenge to ever face mankind."
- Prince Charles

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Climate change makes us all global citizens,
we are truly all in this together."
- Gordon Brown,
British Prime Minister

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We have reached the critical moment of decision on climate change.
Failure to act to now would be deeply and unforgivably irresponsible.
We urgently require a global environmental revolution."
- Tony Blair,
former British PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are close to a time when all of humankind
will envision a global agenda that encompasses
a kind of Global Marshall Plan to address the
causes of poverty and suffering and
environmental destruction all over the earth."
- Al Gore,
Earth in the Balance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In Nature organic growth proceeds according
to a Master Plan, a Blueprint. Such a ‘master plan’ is
missing from the process of growth and development of
the world system. Now is the time to draw up a master plan for
sustainable growth and world development based on global
allocation of all resources and a new global economic system.
Ten or twenty years form today it will probably be too late."
- Club of Rome,
Mankind at the Turning Point

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We need a new paradigm of development in
which the environment will be a priority.
World civilization as we know it will soon end.
We have very little time and we must act.
If we can address the environmental problem,
it will have to be done within a new system, a
new paradigm. We have to change our mindset,
the way humankind views the world."
- Mikhail Gorbachev,
founder of Green Cross International

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The concept of national sovereignty has been immutable,
indeed a sacred principle of international relations.
It is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to
the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation."
- UN Commission on Global Governance report

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and
it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely.
Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well
suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature
of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected
representatives to make competent decisions at the right time."
- Club of Rome,
The First Global Revolution

The personal insults directed toward Mrs. Thorpe in this thread say little about her but a lot about you supposed standard-bearers of "civil discourse". She consistently dresses and presents herself well, is always kind and respectful, well-spoken, and never strays from the issues at hand into personal attacks. She owes you or no one else any explanation for her physical condition. And I suspect if she saw this thread, she wouldn't lower herself to complain or dignify these attacks with a response. She doesn't need to point out the hypocrisy of the self-trumpeting, inclusive Left - you do it for her. And embarrass yourselves in the process.

BTW - Where IS the moderator allowing such reprehensible comments to remain here?

Bill Marshall, how about some links so we can read the laws that you claim require environmental impact studies for sidewalk construction?

@Feet to the Fire I haven't seen anyone ask for an explanation of Ms. Thorpe's physical condition. One issue that has been raised given her physical condition is that it may be reason to suspect that she holds some hypocritical positions regarding what role government ought to play in the lives of citizens. I and others suspect and attitude of "the government is bad except when it subsidizes my particular needs." Read this and see if there aren't some indications that might be the case. http://www.readthehook.com/86364/hotseat-lead-role-carole-thorpe-stars-t...

I wrote earlier that many conservatives get their "news" from Fox, a network that is "a giant soundstage created to mimic the look and feel of a news operation, cleverly camouflaging political propaganda as independent journalism...a study by the University of Maryland reveals, ignorance of Fox viewers actually increases the longer they watch the network."

But, as some of the comments on this site confirm, conservatives also seek “news” from commentators and blogs that make Fox look respectable. For example, one commenter cites the blog http://endoftheamericandream.com/ as a reputable source. That blog is written by Michael Snyder, a Christian end-of-times wack-job who, like other Rapture enthusiasts and conspiracy theorists, has been wrong about virtually every prediction he’s made. Snyder preaches that economic collapse is imminent while peddling gold and silver “investments,” and his brand of God, and fear.

Some commenters on this site have moved beyond Tea Party "leaders" like Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, who are masters at inciting fear and paranoia, and who display a remarkable disdain for historical and scientific knowledge. They’ve adopted as their own the “demagoguery and hucksterism” of “crazy-cons” like Alex Jones and Andrew Breitbart. Interestingly, their mindset is characteristic of extreme conservatism.

One of the most detailed psychological studies of the conservative mind, "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition," found that “at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality.” Comments on this site and from “leaders” like Palin, Limbaugh, Beck (who told listeners to flee their churches if they heard the term “social justice”), Jones, and Breitbart confirm this finding. Conservatives are also more likely to be dogmatic (narrow-minded), refusing to accept into their world view substantiated factual information that conflicts with their already-formed perceptions. They are more likely to fear the future, and seek aggressive remedies to perceived problems. They don’t like uncertainty and they tend to see things in absolutes (black and white, right and wrong); this psychological trait is exemplified by the George W. Bush statement, “"I know what I believe and I believe what I believe is right."

Well, we all (or most of us) know just how wrong George W. Bush was about just about everything...and we are living with his very serious mistakes and errors of judgment (the same mistakes and errors that most conservatives voted for).

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/features/green/2011/05/lawn_fertilizer_l...

http://www.whsv.com/news/headlines/78223417.html

http://www.yorkcounty.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=6273

The last link is about requirements to build in the watershed. There are two important points in this one. 1) the cost of compliance (and the fine for non compliance and 2) The definition of the "watershed" The EPA definition is any water that begins in an intermittent stream (drainage ditch) that can ultimatley end up in the Bay falls under their watershed. So if water runs off a lot on High street into a ditch that flows into a stream that hits the rivanna that hits the James that hits the Bay the rules apply to you. That means that YOU cannot pur a patio or add an addition until you get a stormwater management study done. The rules are there go to Va Department of Envrilmental Quality and read it for yourself.
The Government has the power they are just not enforcing it here. (yet)

We all want a Clean Bay but onerus rules that cost millions are not the way to go. When the rules got to crazy in DC they caught industrial polluters dumping in the middle of the night because with the rules in place the Haulers quadrupled the price lof having it disposed of.

Any body shop owners out there?

Every single thing we argue about in this country comes down to answering a simple question:

What is the role of government and how do pay for it?

This debate has been going on since the Federalists and Anti-Federalists fought over ratification of the constitution. What's happening now is that the very factions and fringe groups (read: Tea Party) that James Madison warned about in his brilliant Federalist Number 10 paper are up in arms that "big government" (which, by the way, for you constitutionalists out there...news flash...the constitution IS BIG GOVERNEMENT!!!) has too much control. You can see this clearly in the comments above, most recently by Bill Marshall.

"Big Government" needs to exist. Neo-Cons love to say that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and for many their favorite president (after Reagan). Lincoln was the epitome of "Big Government." He used federal powers to end an institution of degradation and re-unite the country. "Big Government" was also responsible for Civil Rights and an end to segregation and Jim Crowism. "Big Government" helped end exploitation of child labor and extended the right to vote to women. "Big Government" also ensured that The Jungle style meatpacking ended and our food was safe. Teddy Roosevelt used "Big Government" to establish National Parks, which my wife and my children (and I'm sure yours too) are able to enjoy today.

I could go on and on with lists of the accomplishments of "Big Government," but I'm sure most of you get the idea. All of these things are what define America, and the Tea Party is just a factional fringe that everyone will have forgotten about in a few decades and that will only be discussed in the future in some obscure collegial environment by a bunch of forward thinking, liberal elites.

Enjoy your moment, baggers.

Short sightedness, can't see past my nose thinking at it's pinnacle. We are so fortunate to have such a beautiful land to live in. Have you never traveled to areas that have been overpopulated; or where the destruction of the natural environment have stripped the land of it's vitality? It is a heart wrenching sight to see what has happened to the quality of life for the people in those places.

As an analogy, think of how life threatening it is for a person to suffer severe burns on his skin, and then look at what the human race is doing to the skin of the planet. Unlike in my childhood, we have the cameras now, we can see it. How can you minimize the negative effects human beings are having on our environment? Through the ages there have been great natural swings of environmental conditions, some have hurt us and some have helped. Why would you want to throw your weight in on the negative side? I think it is a choice that will serve to destroy the future for our grandchildren.

good grief. this area is full of truly ignorant pinheads. John Walton Giuliano, who does really have a point, but keeps yelling the same thing over and over again like some crazy dude on the NY subway. Feet to the fire, who probably needs helping putting shoes on in the morning. and bill marshall who channels Palin and just makes stuff up and then links to totally unrelated information.

is this the best you tricorner tinfoil hat wearing wingnuts have to offer?

@Peter Weems - I like your "burned skin" analogy - interesting way to think of it. Thank you for speaking up. Nice showing of community involvement last night. Those of us who choose to live in the most beautiful place on earth have a responsibility to protect and care for it.

I am all for a Federal government protecting the envrionment. I am NOT for a federal governmenmt that is full of beaurucrats with agendas that are affecting my rights.

Ask yourself what type of person "wants" to be a part of the EPA . It is a person who wants to save the envrionment which is fine.. UNLESS they have a different version than was intended when the laws were written and they abuse thier postions to create rules or use selective enforcment to fit their OPINION of what is "right" (no different than a cop with an attitude)

Cars are a perfect example.. the EPA put in air standards and by 1990 they had reduced emissions by 99% at a cost of 2k per car... Now we have spent another 4k per car to reduce that 1% by half. The car companies don't mind because they make their living selling PARTS. (like a polaroid camera) and you MUST fix the emission controls. We would have been better off NOT mandating beyond 1999 and instead mandated fuel economy standards that would have achieved the same net goal by 2010. If they had done that then cars would be getting 5 -8 more miles to the gallon and gas would be cheaper because of lower demand.

Big government has its place, but giant government is no different than a giant bank. They hold all the cards.

Most of you would feel different about the size of government if you paid your share of the tax bill (each American OWES 534K foe their share of the debt)

The Bay needs taking care of but those who love the bay don't care what YOU pay for food or if YOU are prohibited from washing your car in YOUR driveway.

here is an example of government power gone too far...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/chicago-district-attorney-recor...

Democracy, the Alex Jones Show is THE NUMBER ONE INTERNET RADIO SHOW IN THE WORLD. THE WOOORRRLLLLD, I TELL YOU!!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY YOU CANT STOP US NOW!!!! YEAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Bill Marshal I'm still wondering where you read the laws that you claim require environmental impact studies for sidewalk construction? Of the three links you responded with, two have nothing at all to do with sidewalks or even construction and the other doesn't have anything to do with watersheds as you've claimed EPA define them.

The heading the top of the page which your third link points to, which you may have missed since they helpfully placed it at the top of the page in bold all caps, says "CHESAPEAKE BAY PRESERVATION AREAS."

That section specifies requirements for building within or adjacent to RPAs or Resource Protection Areas which are defined elsewhere in the code (copied below) and which comprise only a fraction of the county. Even within the areas to which it applies, it says nothing even remotely like what you've claimed.

Would you like to try again and provide some links that show that some law in place to protect the Chesapeake Bay requires environmental impact studies for sidewalk construction within 500 feet of an intermittent stream?

--------
"Resource Protection Area (RPA). That component of the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Area comprised of tidal wetlands; nontidal wetlands connected by surface flow and contiguous to tidal wetlands or water bodies with perennial flow; tidal shores; and a vegetated buffer not less than 100-feet in width located adjacent to and landward of the components listed above and along both sides of any water body with perennial flow."
http://www.yorkcounty.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=6268

@Caroline, the 1998 Sustainability Accords are not about global warming. Perhaps you should read them, as should the Board of Supervisors. You have seen the word "sustainable" and run off with it. The Tea Party is talking about the $9999,000 grant that will be used to promote the Accords. And I have no problem with that.

And by number one I mean the number of listeners, not my opinion of what's the best show, although it is the best source for information about government corruption and the elite agenda bar none. That's why Fox has people like Beck who give you 90 percent truth and then when it really matters give you complete bull. They'll die out and lose their last listeners to the internet if they don't at least try to give some semblance of credibility.

You ought to love Fox now that the owner is in on the climategate scam.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/14/news/companies/pluggedin_gunther_murdoch...

The DBKP Report has listed Infowars.com as the top alternative news and information website in its February, 2011, 80 Alternative News-Information ratings report. DBKP bases its ratings on 3-month average of Alexa worldwide traffic rankings. In other words, THE NUMBER ONE ALTERNATIVE NEWS WEBSITE IN THE WORLD! THE WOORRRRLLLD, I TELL YOU!!!

Number one radio show on the internet in the entire world, AND the number one alternative news website in the entire world. Just so there wasn't any confusion about the two.

from Bethesda Md:
http://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dpstmpl.asp?url=/permit...

From the Va DEQ web site:
Who Must Apply for Permit Coverage to Discharge Stormwater from a Construction Activity?

•Operators of construction activities resulting in land disturbance equal to or greater than one acre.
•Operators of construction activities resulting in land disturbance equal to or greater than 2,500 square feet and less than one acre within areas designated as subject to the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act.

here is the link to the site:

http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/stormwater_management/vsmp.shtml

and Va law...

http://www.dcr.virginia.gov/stormwater_management/documents/vaswmregs.pdf

The point is the intrusion is severe and will only get worse if not kept in check. That is all these folks are trying to point out.

Regulation is nessasary but overregulation will bankrupt us as a nation.

At least readers now know where John Giuliano gets some of his off-the-wall conspiracy ideas....Alex Jones is a master of them.

@ bill marshall....here are some important excerpt from the Huffington Post article you cited:

"So far, HuffPost has yet to find anyone who has actually been convicted under the law. Instead, police arrest and charge someone they catch recording them, but the charges are dropped or reduced to misdemeanors before trial."

"In 2004, for example, documentary filmmaker Patrick Johnson was arrested under the law while recording footage for a movie about relations between blacks and police in the Illinois cities of Champaign and Urbana. Johnson fought the charges with help from the state affiliate of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). But after the district attorney who was prosecuting him lost in the next election, the new prosecutor dismissed the charges."

"The ACLU of Illinois is also challenging the law. But in January, U.S. District Court Judge Suzanne B. Conlon ruled against the organization. Conlon wrote that the First Amendment does not protect citizens who record the police. The ACLU has appealed and expects to participate in oral arguments before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit sometime in the fall."

So, I assume you agree that the ACLU, in this case as it does in other cases, is protecting the rights of American citizens.

The federal judge, Suzanne Conlon, is a Ronald Reagan appointee. Like other conservative judges, she is predisposed to siding with police and prosecutors, and against citizens.

"•Operators of construction activities resulting in land disturbance equal to or greater than one acre.'

An acre is 43560 square feet. An acre of sidewalk would be 8712 feet long at 5 feet wide that's 1.65 miles of sidewalk before a permit would be required according o the information you've supplied.

"•Operators of construction activities resulting in land disturbance equal to or greater than 2,500 square feet and less than one acre within areas designated as subject to the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act."

"Chesapeake Bay Preservation Area" means an area delineated by a local government in accordance with criteria established pursuant to § 10.1-2107. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+10.1-2101

That is a limited area, again nothing like what you've claimed above. Do you ever read the stuff that you link to?

Would you like to try one more time and provide some links that show that some law in place to protect the Chesapeake Bay requires environmental impact studies for sidewalk construction within 500 feet of an intermittent stream?

Democracy, keep doing what you're doing, it's only gonna make people want to find out what all the fuss is about and they'll tune into the show and learn for themselves about the observations of conspiracy facts from the host of renowned guests Alex Jones interviews, which is where most of the information comes from anyway.Thanks so much. www.infowars.com

I also get "my ideas" from reading quotes like the ones I posted. It's called connecting the dots. It's not a theory, it's a pattern.

It seems like Carole has been doing a really good job of "sustaining" herself so why is she so opposed to the idea?

JWG, it really comes as no surprise that you get your "ideas" from stringing together unrelated fragments mishmashed together with no thought given to their original context or actual meaning.

Your comment about connecting the dots to find a pattern reminds me of a friend telling me he could see patterns in the static on a TV screen. He was on powerful hallucinogens at the time. I think I may see where you're coming from now.

So you must see where the ENTIRE WORLD is coming from too. Hallucinations. Give me a break.

The context is using global warming fraud to take over the world's economies and putting them under a U.N. government. They admit it's fraud and they admit that they're using it for what they see as a greater good, namely reducing the world's population and getting rich in the meantime. When read as a group the quotes show a clear pattern of in your face outright fraud and deception to gain power. But you can't admit the obvious because if you did you'd feel the need to do what I'm doing or something similar to wake people up and that would put you between a rock and a hard place socially.

Maybe financially too. A lot of folks jobs depending on buying into the lie. Especially in media.

Albemarle Responsible Citizens Alliance......
This is another one of these sustainable environment groups. They have an unrealistic utopian view of the world that conflicts starkly with reality. If these people have their way, you will find yourself one day unable to do anything with your property without government involvement. The woman is quoted as saying the tea party may be too radical to put forth any resistance. The fact is that these groups are the definition of radical.
There mission statement sounds warm and fuzzy, but their actual goals include population control...Google that and you will find some shocking facts about groups like this...

Population Control?
A local group called ASAP (Advocates for a Sustainable Albemarle Population) are financed in part by another foundation in Pittsburg called the Colcom Foundation (read their mission statement, it’s a sobering thought). They are pushing population control though limiting growth in our community, among other things. They believe that the population in our area could already be unsustainable. They see a certain number of people in our area to be optimal for our environment, and champion the idea of capping population growth to achieve this lofty goal. There have been groups like this one in America and abroad since the turn of the last century. In fact in the thirties these groups were openly called eugenicists. They shared information and ideology with similar groups around the world. Google Huxley. After the atrocities of the eugenics movement in Nazi Germany were exposed to the world, these groups went underground and resurfaced as environmental or sustainability movements. Sounds great until you start asking questions, questions like what happens to the building industry when we reach this groups perceived limit on buildings and houses? What happens to all of the industries that support the building industry in our community and the livelihoods of those employed in these industries? Who are the lucky ones this group will choose to be a part of their sustainable communities?
How does a group of people get so full of themselves that they think they are entitled to something as basic as housing, and others are not?
Some of my most important questions to the people involved in these foundations are…How do you intend to reduce our population? After you have effectively shut down progress, what’s next? Will having more than two children in this future society be looked down upon? In many circles today it already is. These movements have gotten their tentacles into state legislations around the country. I urge any who read this to research “eugenics in America” and give some deep thought to the ramifications of some people’s idea of a sustained community. I am a good shepard of my land, and I see allot of damage being done unnecessarily to the environment. But I am here to tell you that there is a radical element to many of these groups when you go beyond scratching the surface and dig a little deeper. Yes, we should be good Sheppard’s of this beautiful piece of Earth we inhabit, but not at the cost of the livelihoods of thousands who live and work here.

I found this article:

http://chesapeakebay.umd.edu/article/epa-tighten-rules-chesapeake-bay-ru...

from the article :But Valerie Connelly, director of government relations with the Maryland Farm Bureau, said farms in the state already have nutrient management plans and shouldn't be expected to meet unreasonable regulations.

"In Maryland, farms are already doing a lot of what these reports seem to be asking for," Connelly said.

She said if regulations get too tough, farms run the risk of disappearing from the state.

The report also calls for tighter regulation on suburban and urban land development. As stormwater runs down paved surfaces, it picks up chemicals that end up in the bay

here is something else from the albemarle county website

http://www.albemarle.org/upload/images/Forms_Center/Departments/Communit...

From the VA stormwater managment handbook:
A. Any locality located within Tidewater Virginia as defined by the Chesapeake Bay
Preservation Act (§ 10.1-2100 et seq.), or any locality that is partially or wholly
designated as required to obtain coverage under an MS4 permit under the provisions of
the federal Clean Water Act, shall be required to adopt a local stormwater management
program for land disturbing activities consistent with the provisions of this article......

from the same book:

7. Require that stormwater management programs maintain after-development
runoff rate of flow and characteristics that replicate, as nearly as practicable, the existing
predevelopment runoff characteristics and site hydrology, or improve upon the
contributing share of the existing predevelopment runoff characteristics and site
hydrology........

It sounds to me like you can't create an "impervious surface" without a permit. (or with one for that matter)

and here is a little ditty about the Governments "rights"
(from the Va stormwater handbook)

§ 10.1-603.12:1. Right of entry.
The Department, the permit issuing authority, or any duly authorized agent of the
Department or permit issuing authority may, at reasonable times and under reasonable
circumstances, enter any establishment or upon any property, public or private, for the
purpose of obtaining information or conducting surveys or investigations necessary in the
enforcement of the provisions of this article.

So they can come in at anytime to check out your pool or or flower bed to make sure you are not using an unapproved fertilizer?

(whether they do so is irrelevant, we should not give up our rights without a fight)

And you are all artists...

Some of the comments here about Carole Thorpe are reprehensible. So typical of the hate-filled left, who claim to “Care”.

Lets get this back on track.

Who, in their right mind, would turn over the planning of their community to eugenicists? Oh sure, they euphemistically call themselves "Family Planning Researchers" and loftily speak of social justice. It all sounds so good. But there is nothing new about any of it, it's a new attempt at repeatedly failed and rejected ideologies.

If they dropped the phoney speak and were honest about who they are and what they would like to do, they would be run outta here on a rail and they know it! Instead of explaining how their planning will benefit the environment or community they resort to high school put downs.

At the BOS mtg Wed. night a staff member presenting the ICLEI plans said this, "There are benefits, but they can't be quantified". That said it all.

another example og government overeach

All new cars are REQUIRED to have tire pressure monitoring systems so we save fuel. Except the sensors are between 100 and 200 dollars PER WHEEL and break all the time, especially when the tires are mounted and dismounted. Because they are REQUIRED the makers make them flimsy so they WILL break.

So a set of sensors cost more than the tires.. 800 dollars worth of sensors so you are alerted that you might be losing 1/2 mile to the gallon . So we are saving some fossil fuel and sending money to CHINA to make these widgets. (and ship them here on boats that burn used motor oil for fuel. with NO emission contriols.)

Now that some great going there Feds...

There is TOO MUCH regulation. It needs to be reigned in.

When you shell out a few hundred bucks for new sensors ask yourself if that money would be better off in your kids college fund or in chinas defense budget.

Chopped Liver,

The building industry got a giant boost it shouldn' t have gotten due to the housing bubble. Nor are the particularly good employers, as far as I can see. Homes won't stop needing repairs or being built just because we decide to take growth seriously. Sprawl is NOT the answer to sustainability regardless of population growth.

Sustainability is about how we develop better technologies for better use of our resources. Like it or not, if we want to have anything pleasant left, we have to face some hard choices.

Old Timer,
I'll be sure to put a bottle of topsoil on the shelf in your honor today...lol

"Democracy" is actually a socialist, which we all know is one step above a communist.

I didn't think anybody on here could top the deranged lunacy of John Walton Giuliano. I think I stand corrected - framing sustainable environment groups as Nazi-inspired eugenicists might just be the jaw-droppingly-dumbest thing I have ever heard in my entire life! Keep it up though, every time one of you tea baggers lets loose with such nonsense, you dig another shovel full of credibility out of your movement's own grave. Priceless!

I am not a member of any party. I did do a paper in school on the euginisists movement in the 20th century. Amazed at what I found. Do some research yourself before you start spouting off baseless accusations.

And by the way, you got it backwards, euginists from Amerian academia traveled to Germany and inspired that movement there.

so how many of you tin foil hat wearing teabaggers are for
- legalizing pot
- supporting government intrusion into people's bedrooms (choice, gay marriage)
- allowing folks like the WI and MI governors to dissolve local governments (and elected officials), declare martial law, and install unelected and unqualified czars as city managers
- expanding NSA so it has the ability to wiretap phone calls without a warrant
- mandatory drug testing ala FL Governor Rick Scott

that is all REALLY BIG [BROTHER] GOVERNMENT folks. It is all right-wing social engineering and it is routinely signed and endorsed by the right wingers who are so upset over a tiny grant that will ultimately save the county money (energy efficiency actually does that, for you knuckle dragging luddites out there)

Republicans and tea baggers (and they are one and the same) certainly like small government but s only for large corporations. They do not want to regulate corporations at all or have them pay taxes or follow any type of rule or law. But, for the middle class—they seek to regulate who can get married, who can get a medical procedure, and who you can email and what you can say.

REALLY BIG GOVERNMENT

got to love the cognitive dissonance on the right

Chopped Liver's absolutely right, although he didn't put it as succinctly. But let's be fair, the Nazi eugenicists are at the top of the ladder where the funding and planning for the sustainability agenda is coming from, the well meaning environmentalists at the bottom just like the feeling of the rich and powerful "best and brightest" being for the environment, they like to think they're in charge and associate their sense of power and purpose with them. So they put the blinders on when you tell them the movement is part of a scam being perpetuated by a bunch of Nazi eugenicists, even though it's true. That would mean their precious best and brightest are the worst and darkest. Hitler loved Margaret Sanger for calling black people weeds who need to be culled (with abortion). Many of the top Nazi's escaped to South America or were given refuge by the CIA in this country, and their kids are the ones running the scam now. Please, do some research. Or maybe you already know all this but don't want others to believe it. It's certainly a possibility. Call it a theory if you want.

@Chopped Liver

first, if you can't spell the word, it is hard to take you seriously.

it is "eugenicists"

second, you needed to read more than Edwin Black for your book report, or rely on that class you took at Glen Beck University.

Germany had a long standing history with negative eugenics. Wilhelm Schallmeyer among others. Additionally, while there much racism, nativism and jingoism in the writings of American eugenicists, it was not primarily couched in the overt language of Aryan/Nordic supremacy found in Germany. So it was not imported from the US to Germany lock stock an barrel not did Charles B. Davenport singularly inspire German eugenics.

@JWG

Environmentals= Nazis

wow, now there is an original thought. so creative and insightful.

geez, you tinfoil hat wingnuts really are just ignorant clowns.

Sean, you need to get a clue about the big picture. The top .01 percent are running things and they have all the money to buy the politicians, they write the laws, they pit the poor against the middle class and they hate the neveau rich, they view them as a threat. They don't pay taxes because their corporations and their cronie's corporations get exemptions written into the laws that were written with the politicians and lobbyists they bought. Meanwhile they tell the public that the neveau rich (independent wealth) corporations need to be taxed, they focus on anything they can demonize them with and then employ expert psychologists to turn the public against the wrong rich people, the people from which the revenue and jobs actually do trickle down from (not hard to do when they drive SUV's and have giant houses), while they distract you from their economic sabatoge of America. Large corporations being taken over by the mega rich by pitting the poor and "middle class" against the last remaining independent wealth and industry in this country through the use of a lying puppet president and congress is part of a deliberate destruction of the American economy to consolidate wealth.

I shouldn't have to explain to you what is already explained in my comment about Nazis, eugenics, and the sustainability agenda again. I ask you to consider why you have to blatantly oversimplify and misconstrue what I said. I'm an environmentalist in the truest sense of the word. And I'm not definitely not a Nazi. You sound like you just graduated from college or something.

You don't have to be member of the Nazi party or a child of a Nazi to be a eugenicist who wants to kill off the people of the world and take everything they have and hold it in from of them before they do. But you might have to attend a Bilderberg meeting in the shadow of the Matterhorn every now and again. For the full list of this year's attendees, visit www.infowars.com

You see, they have all the money in the world, they have the best technology in the world, they don't need any of us, we are just in their way now. They want us out of their way. In the words of Ted Turner, we're just useless eaters. If they can work together and pool their wealth into a one world government then they might be able to accomplish their goal of 500 million people on Earth which will be much easier to manage than 7 billion. But they've got their work cut out for them, that's for sure.

I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything.

Madison Grant, the founder of the Bronx Zoo and a groundbreaking conservationist, wrote one of the most influential eugenics books, The Passing of the Great Race, which would be laughable if it weren’t so revolting. In pseudoscientific language, Grant denies the very right to life of members of other races, using as evidence nothing more than his own prejudiced stereotypes. In Grant’s final analysis, white Americans were not racist enough: “They lack the instinct of self-preservation in a racial sense. Unless such an instinct develops their race will perish, as do all organisms which disregard this primary law of nature.”

This goal of creating a more racist society informed much of the cultural work of the institutions led by President Roosevelt and Pinchot (advisor to Roosevelt) not only Grant was an influential friend to the president and phrases and ideas from his writing crept into Roosevelt’s. Oddly, the improvement of the dominant race meshed with the New Nationalism’s utopia of a merit-based society. Without money or class to distinguish them, the sexual attraction between men and women would be guided only by natural selection. Those unbiased choices would automatically sort mates by the proper eugenic criteria, matching the best to the best—white to white, intelligent to intelligent, and so on. That this absurd notion was considered a basis for social policy reveals the extent of the collectivism envisioned in Pinchot’s brave new world

Eugenics thrived in America until discredited by the revelation of the Nazi death camps it had helped inspire. Grant’s book particularly incited Hitler, who wrote him a fan letter calling it his “Bible” before inscribing its hatred upon the flesh of millions of people. (The same Nazi officials who slaughtered human beings in death camps also passed some of the world’s most advanced legislation to protect the environment and endangered species, even outlawing cruelty to animals, including the sort of medical experimentation they performed on their human victims.) World War II’s horrors saved our country from going farther down the eugenic path, but Roosevelt died before that happened, and Pinchot’s life carried him in a new direction. By the 1930s Pinchot had become a champion of the poor and admirer of indigenous cultures, and he spoke out early against German anti-Semitism.
Eugenics thrived in America until discredited by the revelation of the Nazi death camps it had helped inspire. Grant’s book particularly incited Hitler, who wrote him a fan letter calling it his “Bible” before inscribing its hatred upon the flesh of millions of people. (The same Nazi officials who slaughtered human beings in death camps also passed some of the world’s most advanced legislation to protect the environment and endangered species, even outlawing cruelty to animals, including the sort of medical experimentation they performed on their human victims.) World War II’s horrors saved our country from going farther down the eugenic path, but Roosevelt died before that happened, and Pinchot’s life carried him in a new direction. By the 1930s Pinchot had become a champion of the poor and admirer of indigenous cultures, and he spoke out early against German anti-Semitism.
Eugenics thrived in America until discredited by the revelation of the Nazi death camps it had helped inspire. Grant’s book particularly incited Hitler, who wrote him a fan letter calling it his “Bible” before inscribing its hatred upon the flesh of millions of people. (The same Nazi officials who slaughtered human beings in death camps also passed some of the world’s most advanced legislation to protect the environment and endangered species, even outlawing cruelty to animals, including the sort of medical experimentation they performed on their human victims.) World War II’s horrors saved our country from going farther down the eugenic path, but Roosevelt died before that happened, and Pinchot’s life carried him in a new direction. By the 1930s Pinchot had become a champion of the poor and admirer of indigenous cultures, and he spoke out early against German anti-Semitism.

The conservation movement, and the euginics movement have been tied together for a long time.

Garrett Hardin’s 1968 paper “The Tragedy of the Commons,” describing the grim fate faced by unmanaged natural resources such as open-access fisheries, influenced a generation of environmental thinking with its perspective that only a powerful, coercive state could save greedy people from themselves. But Hardin’s real concern was the doomsday prediction of Third World population growth (a prediction that has proven overblown and simplistic). In the 1970s he opposed humanitarian aid to poor countries, hoping to stop their population increases through starvation and disease, and opposed immigration to preserve America as an island of wealth and environmental quality. Hardin believed compassion was a weakness that was bound to be eliminated by natural selection.

In the 1980s, Hardin’s writings helped form an anti-immigration branch of the environmental movement, which shared many members with organizations that advocated for laws requiring the use of English only. Enough environmentalists shared this point of view to bring about a highly publicized national vote by members of the Sierra Club to oppose immigration in 1998. The proposal failed, but the existence of the debate suggests the durability of the links between racism, nationalism, and conservation. The connections don’t by themselves undercut calls for conservation or implicate anyone as prejudiced simply for wanting to protect nature. But they do illuminate the ethical hazards that come with the kind of power Roosevelt sought to accomplish his goals. Without justice and equality, conservation can become, rather than an intrinsic good, a part of a greater evil.

The above were excerpts from a paper written by Charles Wohlforth...
Here is a link...http://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article.php?id=5271

Or, google "Eugenics and the environmental movement" and you will get 59,000 hit

Here is another link you may find interesting...http://www.sntp.net/eugenics/eugenics_america.htm

Environmentalist are basically people who believe the rest of us are not intelligent enough to steward this planet....and decisions regarding the environment need to be left up to their superior way of thinking. The hard core environmentalists, which include many wealthy people in positions of power, have no problem with the elimination of billions of people to further that agenda. Thus, environmentalism + eugenics = utopia in their minds.

So we can just cut and paste someone else's (dubious) scholarship now without bothering with citations?

nevermind

"The hard core environmentalists, which include many wealthy people in positions of power, have no problem with the elimination of billions of people to further that agenda. Thus, environmentalism + eugenics = utopia in their minds."

Wow. And just who exactly are these "wealthy, hard-core environmentalist, mass murderers?" Give us names. Preferably names of people who didn't die seventy-five or more years ago.

To name a few...or google "population control advocates" you will get 3 and one half million hits... Dr. Eric R. Pianka (Top US scientists), Ted Turner, Dr. Henry Kissinger. Paul and Ann Ehrlich (Stanford U professors) John Holdren (Obama'a science czar) Margaret Sangar (Planned Parenthood) Bill and Milenda Gates, David Rockefeller...There is a long list...

That's a breif who's who of the modern day Nazis, alright. It sounds like Kissinger had a bad day today. Hopefully he'll get what he deserves. http://www.infowars.com/bombshell-swiss-parliamentarians-to-force-way-in...

Kissinger was a German born Jew who fled to the US with his family and then returned as a member of the US Army to fight the Nazis. By what sort of convoluted logic does that make him a "modern day Nazi?"

If you need more evidence that Jews can sell out other Jews just look at George Soros, saying it was the best thing that ever happened to him, being given the opportunity to round up fellow Jews for the Nazi's. If he didn't do it someone would have done it to him, he says.

Rense has a very telling disclaimer that it provides a link to at the bottom of that page.

"We choose not to censor skewed logic and uncomfortable rhetoric. "http://www.rense.com/disclaimer.htm

That certainly does come in handy when they publish the work of an author who doesn't seem to know the difference between eugenics and depopulation. Handy again if that author should also assert something as ridiculous as the existence of a group of microbiologists working to create "ethnic-specific bio-weapons." One has to wonder what sort of microbes would be capable of selecting their hosts according to cultural rather than physical characteristics.

A transcript of the statement by Soros along with some discussion of what he said.

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=43876

So, are John Giuliano and Chopped Liver (who chose his screen name quite well, since his "arguments" have the depth and substance of, well, chopped liver) members of the Tea Party? Or have they just decided to do "crazy" on their own?

The author doesn't need to assert anything, Dick Cheney already did it for him.
"Information systems will become an important focus of attack, particularly for U.S. enemies seeking to short-circuit sophisticated American forces. And advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool." - Project For A New American Century "Rebuliding America's Defenses"

So did the International Red Cross: "The potential to target a particular ethnic group with a biological agent is probably not far off. These scenarios are not the product of the ICRC's imagination but have either occurred or been identified by countless independent and governmental experts."[3]

Debunking the "ethno-bomb"
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/12/02news.html

An excerpt-

Likewise, Dr. Daphne Kamely, a leading microbiologist who has worked on environmental safety issues for the Defense Department, as well as the National Institutes for Health and the Environmental Protection Agency, said, "That sounds too far-fetched to me."

"It's like saying to a person, because your skin is black, the rest of you is different, too," added Kamely, who has led several delegations to Middle East scientific conferences. "It's not. It just doesn't make much sense, from a scientific point of view."

Ethnic (Websters) a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background

So Daphne's EPA, DOD, and NIH, and you trust her? It must be nice living inside a fantasy bubble of self delusion where reality is only sugar and spice and everything nice.

It must be nice working for counterintelligence too. I look back on my time with COINTELPRO with fond memories. How they doin these days? Tell them Groucho says hi.

It must be confusing living in a paranoid bubble of self delusion where reality is something you've long lost touch with if in fact you were once familiar with it.

Is it that confusion or something else that would have quote the International Red Cross as an authority on a matter of importance to you. You are aware of their connections to the Rockefellers, the Skull and ones Society, Rosicrucians, and eugenics. So eugenicists are your enemies one moment and your reputable sources another?

If your thinking is that muddled, it's little wonder that you are the sort of person that falls for Alex Jones's garbage. I bet you even send money for him to laugh to the bank with..

Hey, don't be knockin' the order of the Rosy Cross.

And who said I cared about race specific bioweapons? Is the Club of Rome really gonna go after Italians?

If there's anything that I find hard to believe, it's that someone could actually be saying things as dumb as the things you're saying because they actually believe them as opposed to being counterintelligence. It's more a marvel than a disbelief. I see it all the time, I deal with it all the time. I marvel at the beast.

"Counterintelligence" implies that there is intelligence to be countered. That's one less group you have to be paranoid about.

Maybe that's cause they fried my brain for being smart enough to be a threat to them. It's all good. My brain's not scrambled, it's sunny side up.

I guess if I was as smart as you I would never have used my brain in the first place.

Where is Tom Perriello ? He could throw the Tea party out of C-Ville. Oh thats right he got a pink slip back in November.

Correction: the photo in this story mentions the Jefferson Area Tea Party. It should actually reference the Jefferson Area Milkshake Party. P.S.: cookiejar is a mobilized Soros-fearer? Wow, Glenn Beck has been busy! I didn't think anyone paid any attention to him anymore!

Correction: the photo in this story mentions the Jefferson Area Tea Party. It should actually reference the Jefferson Area Milkshake Party. P.S.: cookiejar is a mobilized Soros-fearer? Wow, Glenn Beck has been busy! I didn't think anyone paid any attention to him anymore!

why don't tea party-ers acknowledge the fact that the budget woes of this country are due to both republicans and democrats? it's a matter of record. why dont they speak out against the military industrial complex that is bankrupting us and making its members very rich indeed. if they were true patriots and ideologues they would be their own party striking out against fiscal mismanagement everywhere they see it. the answer is that the movement has been co-opted by the wealthy oligarchs who control our political process and is nothing but a gloss for their interests, recruiting the frustrated and/or lazy minded on one side of the political spectrum to agitate against their own interests in exchange for a sense of belonging and group identity. it's no more worthy of ideological merit than the rooting of a sports fanatic. and there are equivalent "fans" on the other side, but those are less well funded and therefore less heard because they are not backed by as much "eminence gris" provided dollars. if you are a true patriot, stage a voters protest. refuse to vote for any party-backed candidate on any side - BUT VOTE. write in whoever you truly admire. maybe some of the disgusted non-voters can even be convinced to come back and protest vote. imagine if we had more than 50% voter turnout and more than half of those voted for non republican and non democrat candidates. now that's a protest vote that would be noticed. yes, the candidate you voted for would not be elected, but it might break up the cozy two party cabal that is stealing our country by pretending to fight for it. besides, it does no good to vote for canidates of either party, so whats the harm inshaking things up? "write-in" citizen's protest: pass it on.