Night of violence shakes Charlottesville

Four people have been arrested and charged in the Saturday morning homicide of 19-year-old Joshua Magruder. Today in a press conference, Charlottesville Police Chief Tim Longo released information about last weekend's spate of shootings in the city.

At approximately 2:51am Saturday, police found Magruder's lifeless body on the 700 block of Sixth Street SE. The four charged with Magruder's death– Bobby Wayne Gardner Jr., 25 (pictured left), Trenton Michael Brock, 20 (right) Theodore Calvin Timberlake, 20 (below left), and Rachel Turner, 25– were arrested in a motel room on Emmet Street in Albemarle County at 8pm Sunday, where they were "holed up," according to Longo.

"They were arrested without incident," Longo said. "They surrendered themselves."

After a bond hearing this morning, Turner, charged with being accessory to a crime, was released on $5,000 bond, while the three men were held without bond and charged with first-degree murder. Gardner is also charged with possessing a firearm after previously being convicted of a felony.

While still trying to sort through the facts of the case, police have determined that Magruder was shot multiple times and appeared to be running when he fell. Police also believe that the people involved knew each other. Longo declined to speculate on gang involvement.

"There was clearly a relationship between all parties, and it's fair to say that they could be characterized as gang members," he said. "It is, however, undetermined if it had anything to do with gangs, and the individuals have not been validated as gang members.

"There may have been a conflict between two groups, one of which Magruder was a part of," Longo continued. "But to what extent that conflict was related, we don't know."

Longo did not dismiss the idea of the homicide being connected to shootings on Page Street that occurred at 7pm Saturday and sent an 18-year-old Charlottesville resident to the UVA Medical Center. Eighteen-year-old Calvin Earl Maupin and 22-year-old Robert Jason Burrell are being held without bond and have racked up multiple felony charges, including shooting into an occupied vehicle. The victim is being treated for a gunshot wound to the chest and is expected to recover.

"It's premature at this stage, with a trial pending, to say to what extent they are related," Chief Longo said.

Police have recovered a total of four firearms from the weekend's shootings– two from the homicide and two from the shootings on Page Street. While all suspects are in custody, police are still working to understand the circumstances surrounding both shootings.



Well........Everyone wants to know and talk about why the poor 64 shooter did what he did. Everyone wants to ask how he did in school and where were his parents? Why aren't you asking it about these kids??? Oh yeah..didn't happen in your neighborhood so who cares....right? Act like there aren't more of these young men walking around the the number 1 city to live in.

You cant honestly question the lack of concern over this can you? the 64 shooter shot innocent people. These thugs were shooting each other, probably gang and/ or drug related so no, this want get much sympathy. These "young men" you speak of are 20-25 years in age.Cant blame the parents for this one.

Based on overwhelming statistics, I'm guessing we already know something about their parents. I'm not buying that the difficulty finding work is responsible for the angry hordes strutting through the projects. I'm also not buying that the high cost of homes is responsible for crazy homeless people living in the woods and hanging about in our park and pedestrian mall downtown. Whatever it is, I hope it gets fixed. Otherwise, I may be reading a different hometown newspaper before too long.

I do have to make a comment on defense of Rachel...I know her through high school and PVCC; I would have never thought in a million years she would be in something like this. She has been a hard worker since I have known her...she will be in my thoughts and prayers...



First of all i'm not referring to Speechless because i agress with his/her statement but to the other three comments you have no right to judge or call them thugs because you dont know them or know all the details to the crime all you know is what you read. And speaking on their parents who are you GOD? No its because they are black thats the reason why you are sayong what you are saying and yes it was a terrible tragedy and i feel sorry for his family and for his child. He was someones child and regardless these were all someones children. If CHARLOTTESVILLE had more activitites for these young people to do than it wouldnt be so violent but thats not the case. Charlottesville caters to only the white people so its sorry for our luck as black people so before you judge know all your facts, the characters of these people and know them because you dont care because we are talking about black people in black communities.

Poor me. Same ole' story. Do for yourself and quit expecting a handout.

Without getting into anything about anyone's parents at all and without offering any opinions about anyone's character: the people in question in this situation are 20, 20, 25 and 25 years old, respectively while the victim was 19 years old. What "activities" is the city supposed to be making available to adults? These are not 15 or 16 year old kids.

I was being sarcastic to provoke some thought! It worked. Speechless...get a grip. There are multiple members of multiple gangs in Charlottesville, and yes..some are from NYC.


Nothing changes but the weather.
Things like this have been happening forever.
The only real difference now is that the liberals let their daughters date whomever they want.

quote, Cheif Longo: "Bobby Wayne Gardner Jr. 25, Trenton Michael Brock 20, Theodore Calvin Timberlake 20, and Rachel Turner 25¢Ã¢â??‰â?¬Å? were arrested in a motel room on Emmet Street in Albemarle County at 8pm Sunday, where they were holed up," according to Longo.

Now we find out this isn't true. Bobby Gardner turned himself into the police department. Guess somebody forgot to bring Longo up to speed..... AGAIN. Just like last time in the wheelchair case where Longo had no clue there were witnesses.

Well you know what the point remains that these are peoples children regardless of age and its easy to say do for yourself when you sitting on your high horse looking at people down from your THRONE! There should be something to do regardless of age. Also nobody can speak on the age really because you got grown people in their 40's and 50's doing things to peoples kids, leaving their kids in cars while they get their hair and nails done and come back to the car and their baby dead. I dont see nobody bringing up the parents about that. These are black kids we are talking about so of course they are thugs. The guy who got killed he has a record is he a thug to? Did he deserve to die? And nobody knows nothing about this except for the people who was there Longo dont even know everything so dont listen to everything you read and hear. The violence has to stop regardless of race and age! I have no prejudice in the matter.Im not calling anybody any names either.

You're the one pulling the race card, and you think C'Ville caters to whites? Sounds to me like you might be an angry racist, someone who only contributes to the hateful sentiment in his neighborhood. Most of us have found out or come to believe that you need to put your nose to the grindstone, do your work with dignity, build a reputation, so one day you will be able to provide for a family. That includes raising your child, teaching them to live right AND keeping your children safe. I don't know at what point in the investigation we are allowed to comment on whether these cretins have out of wedlock children or are fatherless themselves, but it seems to me that a lot of these facts get continually ignored - and I think they are symptomatic - and curable.

You do recall a mother that went to work at UVa and left her baby in the car, don't you? She eventually did stand before a judge, and will judge herself over and over again for the rest of her life (of course, she wasn't having her nails done, or sitting on a throne as GOD), but I get your point: laughably weak and defensive as it is)

This latest bit of news is just another in a long string of events that threatens my family's safety downtown. I think it is crazy to think we are safe when there is regular gunplay and there are slums just blocks from downtown, from West Main, from UVa.

Ok, get a grip! Why would you want to be sarcastic to provoke some thought? A person life was taken...YOU get a grip please! Not only his family/friends are hurting; everybody that is in the situation family/friends are hurting, too.

You can raise your child right and they can still go out a make irresponsible choices. The 64-sniper boy is using that one, right!

I know Rachel and I know she must have been at the wrong place and with the wrong people. Its not in her character... she always went to school, worked, and took care of home.

And, if it was actually REAL GANGS in Charlottesville, VA...we would know it. The crime rate would be out of control, it would be deaths every week, you would not want to go out when its dark, etc. Do you know what a gang is and what comes with a gang? I don't think so. They could just be peers that grew up together--not in a gang.

Why do we have a housing project so close to the Mall? Get rid of it. Why do we have a housing project so close to the University and hospital? Get rid of it. They do not build housing projects anymore for a reason. We need community programs to put these people into homes, educate them, and allow career development. You must have all three. Otherwise most of them just live in housing projects.

"Grant" you have a good point on, "...We need community programs to put these people into homes, educate them, and allow career development. You must have all three..."

If Charlottesville want to see less crime and a brighter future; "WE" as a whole must step up in our community.

Be mindful, if the projects were gone, crime will not dissapear. Crime happens in all areas. Think about it...Charlottesville Police Station and the courts center the Downtown Mall but crime still happens there. The 64-snipers were in the surrounding counties shooting drunk, but did not get pulled over. The guys were found at his house. Where were the police when these shots were launched? Because, if it was near/in the projects...I bet you they would have been there on spot in 7.7 seconds. I just think our community as a whole must now come together for a change.

I am not too concerned with the County. Look up all the shootings and homicides in the City and I'll bet you that 75% (I really don't have a clue) occur within a block of the projects and the shooter(s) and/or victim(s) live or lived there. Hardy and Friendship Court need to be razed.

This is a tragedy for everybody involved. For whatever reason, these adults are responsible for their actions. Sadly, they'll learn that responsibility too late. Good parents will wonder where they went wrong. Bad parents will assume the victim role. The fact that these adults failed to overcome whatever adversity or bad decisions led them to this point is regrettable but irreversible.

It looks to me like we have naturally occurring groups and associations, but the "gang" hysteria appears to me to be mostly a budget increase ploy from law enforcement. Crime is crime and it doesn't matter whether their "club" is the Boys & Girls Club, the police department, the good-ole-boys-club, or the bloods. Crime is crime.

There are programs and things to do in the area, especially for kids. Adults should have jobs or be looking for jobs. This area has an unbelievably low unemployment rate. There is a job for everyone, even if it takes a little while to find the right one. This is not about victims or lack of opportunity. It is about bad choices. Adults are responsible for their bad choices.

My heartfelt prayers are lifted up for all those impacted by this tragedy. I pray that the hard lesson might prove a blessing to someone who learns from the mistakes that these people made and avoids them.

Yeah, you're right! You can not argue that one...again, good point! I guess the community as a whole will have to come together as ONE.

We should start when they are young, meaning, go into the schools and educate these kids that street life equals death in most cases. But, let them know it is a word called, REHABILITATION!

If the schools are teaching are kids about sex, drugs, and everything else the School Board should have a police officer speak to scare the living S*** out of them by showing pictures of what's really out here. Because, we have some parents that shelter their kids and when they are of age...they worse off than the ones that we think are "too grown". But, its some kids that didnt have a chance, they were "born" into it.

Sad to say, we do not want our children to think its cool, it brings a good reputation, or it is okay to follow after there family/friends footsteps of violence, which could be a generational thing.

This is a response back to A VOICE OF REASON first of all you dont know me! I am far from a racist I have plenty of white people in my family and I have alot of white blood running through my veins. My great grandfather was a white man so you don't know what the H*ll you are talking about. I have a family, I have two kid and i'm a single parent and I take care of mines by myself and I am not on welfare and dont get no housing assistance. I have my own home and i dont live in the projects, hood, ghetto etc. or nowhere near them FYI. My children are safe and does great in school and have the best of manners and I work five days a week so dont tell me sh*t about what I need to do because I was alredy doing it because thats what I am suppose to do and thats what I want to do so come again. You are calling all these people names like you are so much better than them and for real you probally have done your dirt as well. Nobody's Perfect so while you are sitting on your throne calling names take a look at what you did as a young adult.

I feel for these families and sorry to say there is crime everywhere and of all races. Im not condoning what has been done and whoever done this should be held responsible whether they are white, black, purple , pink or green. I wouldn't want that in my neighborhood but I have lived in that kind of neighborhood but thank god I got out. And I want to make a point Charlottesville is racist, the whole commonwealth is racist and this is a black on black crime so to be honest they might be trying to solve this crime but for real to them its just one more Ni**a off the street. So Im gonna keep it real with you this is how it is and if you are of a person of color you know this just as well as I do. But us as a black community need to take a stand and take back our neighborhoods but that easier said than done because it will never happen and we all know that.I know Rachel and Bobby and I feel sorry for her children and his family but Joshua I feel so sorry for him, his family and his son. That little boy will never see his father again over something that didnt need to happen and uncalled for.

"Brutally Honest" you go GIRL! I understand you all the way!!! That was real talk and that's all I have to say...REAL TALK!!

I have known 3 of these young aduts and the victim since they were very young. These children had problems in elementary school. Then it was carried over to the high school, which has now been carried over to adult hood. Many people entered these childrens lives, and all failed them. As a society we are not doing something right, pointing the blame is not solving the problem. These children needed help long before now and the signs were out there and a blind eye was turned.

Open your eyes society because the worst is yet to come.

So it's everybody's fault?

Voice of reason on some real talk these people are cretins, thugs, gangbangers, homeless people, drug atticts and drug dealers remember thats what you said so why do you really care? Are you going to try to help towards to taking the steps to help the problem? No the only thing you can do is call names and single out. Arent you living the perfect life? The way that we as decent human beings are suppose to be living? Its not your fault at all so you shouldnt worry about about it. Leave that up to the people who really care about this situation and are willing to take steps towards these actions not taking place.

Excuse me I didnt edit my statement I meant to put "ADDICTS". Dont want the king to think Im ignorant and cant spell just was typing fast thats all.

You don't need to get so wound up over a guy like me. The only harm I mean to do is to the reckless lifestyle of certain members of the underclass, by making my voice heard and encouraging law enforcement to protect my rights from the products of failed families (and quite possibly a corrupt culture).

I'm only out here doing the right thing every day, and I am showing my children the way (though their natures are good, I understand that proper nurturing is critical, too). It is the shooter who is playing as God, but I am sick and tired of living among an underclass who threaten my peace, and have nothing but excuses for what they do. I won't accept it.

You can talk about the need for a greater societal role until you're blue in the face, but the point remains that decent people are living in fear of cowards like these who don't have the guts to make a decent life for themselves, but are coming from a culture that goes against decency.

That's my opinion, of course, and your mileage may vary, but it is the world I live in and contribute to, and I have that right.

and I didn't say anything about your grammar up until now (but I work on that with my kids every day - even in the summer! It helps to speak proper English if you want to be successful in the USA, after all.

I've seen alot over all of these years I've been alive. This violence seems to be the same old crap, different day. When Jane McGowan was killed (by 2 dirtbags who happened to be white) I said the same: "Enough already! Those words are directed at whoever thinks that unrest is inevitable, or that we must accept the odd bit of violence in our communities - it is UNacceptable and I will not tolerate the danger it presents to my loved ones - I will not!

I'm all for volunteering at PACHEM, donating to the soup kitchen and all else I am already involved in, but I am not about enabling someone to cop out on their responsibilities, nor to I accept their choices (camping out under some plastic sheeting behind KMart, panhandling all over the downtown pedestrian mall, sleeping in the library and park, throwing rocks and cold-c*cking passersby.

It doesn't mean I don't care, but it's baloney to talk this way about making a change. Some of these people are not on their medication, some of them are truly oppressed, or victims of circumstance. Most of them are making bad choices and not tending their gardens or being encouraging to others by setting an example with their lives. Who is worthy of our help? Not everyone at this point. Some are simply not worthy. Some are a very bad risk, in fact. Get to them early while there's a better chance perhaps (hold their parents accountable?).

Given more time, perhaps I could express it better, but it boils down to this: it's time to clean house in Charlottesville.

You will never understand so there is no point in even talking to you. And as far as my grammer i speak proper grammer and sand so does my kids so i dont know what the hell you are trying to imply. Why are you telling me that you have to speak proper grammer to succeed in the U.S.A.? Are you telling me that I need to go back to Africa in your sarcastic comment. Go bow down to your confederate flag and weep because you are really pissing me off and i'm not going to bow down to your level. You wouldn't understand what I am saying but there are others who do so I guess they are part of my culture. But we are ignorant right? Thats your opinion! So who's the ignorant one voice of reason? Your voice has only one reason.

Why are some people here making excuses for murdering thugs? Why did the mother of the shooter knowingly let her son bring a gun to a fight because the other participant had a gun? What kind of backwards parenting is that? "Ya'all best be bringin' a gun, Honey, the other boy mights be havin' one." How can anybody put the blame on society for this nonsense? Does anyone applaud society when one of these so called 'underclass' study hard, get good grades and start a career. I suppose not. I also imagine many thousands do. I for one will raise a toast to these people; the ones that decided to start a life, not end one. Cheers!!!

Listen to all of you I I I and Me Me Me. PLease this is not about the people here and this has noting to do money, education
or color. Some of these kids should have been put away before this happened. But there are laws, and these laws protected them and allowed them to stay on the streets.

We applaud the young men and women that have over come, but this is not about them.

wealthy parents have children that are out there doing the same thing you just don't hear about it. Charlottesville news like to focus on the poor neighbor hoods. Did any notice how quickly the young people's photo were shown. Giving half truth information out and people making things up as they go along.

Yes, that is society not the parents.

What a delusional world you live in. Sure, and occasional suburbanite will kill somebody. To say the media does not report such occurrences is ludicrous. I was born and raised in Detroit. The ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?Å?ghetto' crimes are reported everyday like the weather. When a ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?Å?white' kid from West Bloomfield murders his cousin, well, that is a two day news story because it is different. Don't you dare say we don't hear about it. The citizens in C'Ville, and Albemarle County, should be proud that there are ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?Å?only' a half dozen murders a year, They should be equally appalled that there are any. I DO NOT want this area to become a mini-Detroit. These kids,¢Ã¢â??¬Šno, these kids parents, need to step up and teach them wrong from right. There is no reason at all for senseless violence. While growing up in Detroit, my parents taught me to walk away from impending violence. They didn't tell me to bring a gun. Uneducated cowards, that is what these kids are. People like you are a large part of the problem. Google search ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?Å?Accountability' then teach it to these punks before the end up killing somebody or dead. Peace,..out!!!

grammar (with an a)

Voice of Reason: Oh well I spelled it wrong but read through what you wrote and how many misspellings can you find. Quite a few. Stop being so childish. Can you spell CONFEDERATE FLAG RACIST? Thats what you are. Now to DeeMan I dont know if you were referring to me but I dont like violence, condone violence and dont want me or my family around violence. I dont blame the parents because when you are an adult we have choices and we choose what we do so whoever did this needs to pay the consequences. I dont believe in killing anyone. I have children and they know right from wrong. My children show the utmost respect for everyone and themselves and why? because thats what I have taught them. Its bad enough that they know this is going on in the ity where they live but they know thats not the life that they want for themselves. These young men know right from wrong but they mad choices and they have to pay for them.

The reason why I am so hostile on this page is because you have people on here making racial comments and I am going to say what I need to say to them and when you say that we come from a culture thats against decency. I am from a black culture and thats telling me that this man is saying that black people come from a culture that is against decency that offends me tremendously. I dont consider myself as a underslass period. And thats how I feel and I am going to say it just like it was said to me. We as a whole need to step up and try to stop the violence if possible before it gets worse and it can be worse. Violence is everywhere and of every color. Read the comments that POMPOUS PRICK "A voice of reason" wrote and see what you think. I just feel sorry for the children and families thats been affected by this I have no sympathy for who did this AT ALL!

I am a black man from the Motor City that got an education, began a career and started a family. We had to move out of the Metro Detroit area because the company I worked for went out of business. To be 'Brutally Honest', some of your statements are more racisct than the Voices. I have never understood the way some black people talk about other black people, but when a 'white man' says the same thing, he's a racist. I know a few decent white people who have almost given up treating blacks as equals; they just can't win no matter what they say or do. And I don't blame them at times.

If you are a victim of self-loathing, do something about it - there's still time to change.

Hmm, I must confess that I have my doubts about those who prowl the streets from midnight to four in the morning while most of us sleep in preparation for the next day's work. Locals who know this neighborhood intimately tell me that this is nothing but drugs, plain and simple---but of course we all know that this just could not be true. What would Jefferson and his squeeze, Sally Hemings say about all this? As I see it the GOOD thing about our drug epidemic is that it has brought the races together, so to speak.

yo bh, when and if I misspell, it's generally a typo (not braggin', jes sayin' that I understand how important proper use of the language is). Your atrocious use of grammer (sic) clearly marks you as a member of a different class, and insinuates that you are either isolated from the real world, or use the lingo to bond with others like you (and not like me). The official language in this country is still English and there are dictionaries and the Elements of Style to refer to iffin' ya wanna knowwhut the rules is.

nighthawk. I doubt it's all about drugs. Some would like us to believe that the youth is out of control on drugs. Some would like to believe the establishment's poisoned black youth intentionally, or introduced AIDS into their communities or fly Confed flags in their closets, or wish they'd all shoot it out amongst themselves, or get on a slow boat to Monrovia (that's in Liberia for our listeners in Rio Linda)-read it for yourself, above).

It's hard not to sound harsh when speaking the truth the way I am seeing it, but it's a shame to see good real estate being squandered, and feel the resentment some feel for our entitlements (which we havbe earned the old-fashioned way) After generations on welfare, it may take a few more before old habits die.

In the meantime, do we really need to walk on eggshells to appease these b*stards? Here, we're talking about killers, but what about the up-and-coming antisocial elements of their tribe (of whatever color) that propogate these myths and the divide between us?

Stop showing me your boxer shorts and get a job!

Oh so now I'm from a different class? Bond with others like me? WOW! So what you think about that Dee Man? HA!HA! Voice of Reason you are very funny. Seems like you are the one who's self loathing. Your problem is that you think you are so much better than anyone else. Murderers should pay for their crimes regardless of what race they are. And to your comment about the boxer shorts... Not everyone that you see that shows you their boxer shorts do not have a job. I don't agree with wearing your pants that way but thats their sense of style no one in my house wears their pants like that so it really doesn't bother me. So just because a man pulls their pants up will make them better than another man who doesn't? I know guys who show their boxers and work and have a home and doing very well in their life like a DECENT man and I also know some men who wear pants like they are suppose to who are in the street doing things that aren't right. Living lives like we wouldn't.Welfare.. No never been that route but won't knock the ones that need it. So who are you to judge.

We all judge each other. And I vote, that's who I am. I vote with my wallet and with my feet. If I don't like what I see downtown, I won't go there and spend my time and my money. I'll vote for a politician who promises to fight ignorance and violence. The pants down aroun they butt and broken English go hand in hand, imo - I don't respect that sort of dress and it sure isn't welcome in a place of business, is it?

I'll bet Dee Man ain't ridin' around all night - sounds like he'd be sleeping, getting ready to go and put in a day's work somewhere to support his family. Then I bet he goes home and raises them properly as he can (I'm just assuming, since it seems like he and I speak the same language, so to speak)

You see, I grew up amidst this very sort of nonsense, a long time ago in a truly urban environment. I do not want this for my child, and I will not have it. I don't want to live in a bubble either, traveling comfortably between air-conditioned spaces and hoping we are not one of the unlucky ones whose lives are touched by tragedy. I expect like-minded individuals to stand up and speak out. You know d*mn well what's going on, don't you? Who is responsible for the threat to our quality of life? Put two and two together and stand by my side and say it with me...

Demand Justice Now!

styles come and they go, true, but I once read that the deal with the pants down started by emulating those who have to give up their belts in prison - is there any truth to that? At any rate, trying to be as objective as possible, I think it looks like hell (like I said, fashions changed - powdered wigs were once "in")

On the subject of welfare, it should not be glossed over so lightly. It was terribly abused for generations and should only have been meant to help people get themselves up by their own bootstraps, not create breed sows.

For once voice of reason I agree with you on everything you just said. Welfare to me is for people in need (that really need help) for those to get on their feet but not to just sit around and collect because they don't want to work. I won't do it. I have to go to work everyday. I've been working since I was 13. Started out with a company called RENT A TEEN. They place teens on job sights that need a little help for a few hours and I helped raise my cousins so their mother could work and got paid for it. So to me more of these kids should be working. My children aren't old enough to work but in a couple of years they will be able to and they cant wait to do it. So I understand the working part. If we would have wrote to each other like this at first than it wouldn't have gotten so harsh but anyway I agree with you an what you just said. My son will not wear his pants hanging off of his butt. And I heard the prison theory but I don't know how much truth is to it.

God Bless You for that. It is difficult to communicate this way, over the internet, isn't it? To strangers, without a face or an expression to accompany or temper the words, and the choice of them so critical to being heard or shut out.

I'm happy to have you understand where I'm coming from. I saw some horrifying things growing up (home invasion, held up at gun and knifepoint, dead bodies dumped at the park and down my street, youngest sister grabbed away from us, burglaries). Even when I talk about some of what we have been through right here in Charlottesville, people don't accept it as their reality, but it's real enough for me, and I can't let my beloved child live through the same as what I have seen. I tell him a lot, but I can't yet let him know all the truth of what I have found out in my life.

The subject is a powderkeg, to be sure. Humiliating for some, and for others it inflames and makes them defensive. It's hard not to be angry and incredulous to see the same old story play out over and over and over again and again. I am furious, scared, bewildered. This isn't the way it should be.

Good night, my brother (or sister). sweet dreams...

You are very welcome. And thank you to. Im a beloved sister. Goodnight....

I think I'm going to cry,...sniff.
I was ready to jump on here and speak my mind. VOR did it for me and BH agreed. I almost feel some progress is being made. If we could get more people that truly wanted change (for the better), maybe there is hope.
When I first read VOR's 'breed sow' comment I was mortified. How dare you call black ladies on welfare breed sows? I then remembered a Detroit News article a decade or so ago regarding the failing welfare system in the inner city. They found that the average singe welfare mother in Detroit (and there were tens of thousands) had something like 4.5 kids. More than 50 had 9 or more kids! One was quoted as saying, ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?â??The more kids I have, the more welfare money I get.¢Ã¢â??¬ Now if she doesn't deserve to be called a ¢Ã¢â??¬Ã?Å?Breed Sow', nobody does.

I know about it firsthand.

Willie and his extended family lived above the restaurant where I worked. He would hide when the social worker came around. He was rather dapper, but he didn't work. His wife was a fat slob who had a bunch of kids, some she had before she met Willie. Their 15 year old daughter got pregnant by a guy pushing carts around the grocery parking lot while he was on his lunch break (she had quit school and was lounging around at home, nearby). It's one real story and I've got others like it. Unacceptable family values, in my opinion (and one reason for the collapse of the whole shebang).

I hope I have conveyed the anguish of memories I have from growing up in a mixed community - the beatings, the fear at night. That was real too. At times I feel like John Irving's character from the novel Garp: tortured by the thoughts of what horrors might touch his family and driven to slap them down in time. I'm not a mathematician, but the writing has been clearly on the wall all of my lifetime - is no one able to read it?

It doesn't matter what race these people are, what matters is that they took another persons life, so therefore they need to be punished to the fullest extent. Mr. Magruder was somebodys child, grand-child, sibling,
and friend. Who gave them the right to take his life away. They deserve
what-ever punishment they receive, hopefully life in prison without
ever a chance of parole...................

But the underlying issue in this case, apparently, is crime emanating from the housing projects in Charlottesville and that is, unfortunately, connected to race. I see evidence of a similar set of circumstances that occurred surrounding the murder of Jane McGowan recently (those men were white, but they have a lack of family proper upbringing and lifestyles in common). Until we deal with the real issue straight on, we will only continue to be dealing with these criminals in the courts, one after another after another.

These conversations have really enraged me. As someone who works with the kids in this community (and yes, kids do grow up, and should be held accountable for their actions), I can refute plenty of things that have been said so far in this lovely discussion that has turned into blatant stupidity.

How a black-on-black crime got turned in to a conversation about racism is unbelievable to me. This is possibly about gang involvement, but there's no way to validate this quite yet. For those of you who are living in a dream world, I can tell you that there are PLENTY of gangs here in Charlottesville - there are subsets of Crips and Bloods. This is a fact - trust me, it's my job to work with these kids. Completely irrefutable.

Also, to whoever it was that said we just need to bulldoze the Section 8 Housing, you're an idiot. Please inform me of how this is going to stop crime. While it a concentrated area of housing for people who cannot afford to rent or buy a home without government assistance (and there is undoubtedly a lot of crime there), these people would just be homeless if these areas were eliminated, probably breeding even more crime in a time of even more intense desperation.

And finally, why does everyone act like there is a solution to this? While I work with these kids and families and do my best to help in any way I and my agency can, there is only so much that can be done. Part of the responsibility is left up to the person, or their family. If they choose not to make the right decisions (and inevitably, some people won't), crime will continue to exist and the poster who is "trying to raise his kids to live right" will have to worry about this "underclass". You're disgusting, by the way.

Try working with these people and these families before you talk like you know anything about them.

You're enraged? Join the club. What do we know about them? Not much, I guess, we keep seeing their pictures in the paper, and now the cops are rolling in and chasing down anyone who runs away. I saw the videos on youtube of brutal fights in the projects - families, mothers with children looking on - that disgusted me. If you're right and there is no solution (and you may be right because nothing seems to be getting fixed) what are we supposed to do? Accept this in our midst? Is there a link with illegitimacy and lack of parenting? Is this part of a culture? How do you recommend we work with them? As the price of fuel rises and we are all feeling the pinch, I can only imagine the additional stress on the less fortunate - I don't envy the fear they live with either.

As far as how successful my daily father-to-son talks will be, we may have to wait and see - so far so good!

TO YHNI, simply working with these kids doesn't make you automatically an expert on how to solve the problems they create in greater society, nor does it make you qualified to weigh in on the value that public housing offers/does not offer. That argument about 'if we knock it down where will they go' is quite old btw and proven wrong time and time over. I grew up in Charlottesville and with all its problems, the Hardy Dr residents weren't killing each other or shooting each other in the 70s the way they are now. This was before the gangs you cite moved in and took things up a notch. More recently I lived in a large urban area that tore down public housing and replaced it with townhomes that low income families could buy with assistance. Neighborhoods were transformed. Were some displaced and forced to move on/out? I'm sure, as the density dropped - but that was key - a drop in the density alone was proven to help repair those communities. Hardy Dr is now broke - I don't know that it can be fixed easily - but I agree that COURAGE is needed on the part of elected officials to do SOMETHING. Simply resigning ourselves to black on black violence in public housing neighborhoods is defeatist and hopeless, and not the community that we are in C'ville. We need a leader or leaders. Like Obama says, we need hope. I'm not saying turn a cold shoulder to those living in public housing - I'm saying have the courage to make a change.

We do need a change, and the time is now. I agree that the density is a problem, so maybe bulldozing them's not necessarily evil. Housing projects are a bad idea. There was a psychological study done at Cabrini Green (Chicago?) that showed why this is. I've been told there is not adequate affordable housing here, even for working professionals, but I'd pay taxes earmarked for low income housing as Yikes describes - I'd even come down with my tools and spend a weekend or two helping to build them - that would be a worthwhile step, imo. They should be efficient of energy and space - there's plenty of open land around Charlottesville.

"VOICE OF REASON", how can you make a comment about underclass people? I am no where near underclass but you are referring to the "black community" and I am black, so it offends me. Straight up! What about the shooting that ocurred the very next day on Page St? One of the shooters was a white male. What would be your "Voice of Reason" for that incident? Then, the 64-snipers were two undersage boys drinking and doing drivebys in the early morning which caused schools, roads, etc to be shut down. No one made comments as such about that incident... What will be your "Voice of Reason"? Then, a year ago the lady from NASA was attempting a serious crime against her boyfriend/husband due to him having a mistress. Voice of Reason for that? At the end of the day, Crime has no Color or Demographics. It can happen in the rich, middle, or underclass neighborhood. People make choices in life...sometimes good and sometimes bad, but there is a word called REHABILITATION!

I will tell you a personal story: My brother and I was raised in a middle class home, in the church, and he was a honor mother and father did everything right as a parent... but HE still went out here and got into the streets in high shcool but had GOOD GRADES (for that reason; my MOTHER and FATHER NEVER KNEW), then he went to college and brought that street life mentality with him..years later when he was about to graduate from college... he got in trouble, but he still graduated from college..GOD blessed him through that situation...he relocated and retired from the street life (still on probation)...he got married to his girl from college, they bought a 3-story townhouse in the Northern Virginia area and he's a Junior Engineer at a PRESTIGOUS LAW FIRM IN WASHINGTON, DC MAKING 6 FIGURES A YEAR! His probation officer let him off of probation due to his addition, my brother made more money, drove a better car, and lived in a bigger house than his P.O. due to his position at the law firm. They used him as an example in there division on success after street life... GOD IS GOOD! You do not have to let your current circumstance dictate your future nor your current circumstances is your FUTURE! So, please do not talk down any culture due to violence, God made us different! And, what would be your "Voice of Reason" with that incident?!?

Don't put words in my mouth. Underclass is as underclass does; of course it's not based on color alone. As I have already said, the murderers of Jane McGowan were white, but they had similar socioeconomic issues and lifestyles. There are, most certainly, some obvious demographic issues when it comes to crime.

We should strike while the iron is hot and tell the uncomfortable truth - something terrible is going on in these projects (Hardy Drive, Orangedale, Friendship Court, Prospect, etc.), and it is unacceptable. There are innocent people there, and some of them are losing their innocence while we lie about what is going on. It's time to stop avoiding the truth. Political correctness is just stalling and placating the wrong people imo.

I'm no Sociologist, but I have a right to express my opinion.
We are already subsidizing the underclass with taxes, tears and fear, but our money good be better spent.

"Voice of Reason...Underclass is as underclass does; of course it's not based on color alone..." I am perplexed with that statement!

WHAT? Not ALL underclass people kill, steal, destroy, or in jail! Some underclass want the life of GREATNESS but they could have been born, raised, or just put in that environment. Its a lot of single Mom's in Hardy Drive, Orangedale, Friendship Court, Prospect, Riverside, etc. of different shades of skin wanting their babies out of the "hood", but they do what they have to do to survive for the timebeing. If that was their only choice, then that's what it was. If you have a problem with those areas, then YOU house them and help them make a life that in "your" eyes is good! But, do not sit there and talk this talk and you're not doing nothing. YOU and the system does not make it any easier...This is a case where if someone can not relate, not understanding, or never been there have NO say so...POINT BLANK! Because your views are ridiculous and judgemental!

I understand because my parents did foster care for all colors! Yes, its blacks, whites, mexican, asian, and in foster care, too. So, I'M UNDERSTABDING and I think along with "Brutally Honest".

You should be careful what you say, because one day your son could be the next ROBERT JASON BURRELL. Parents like you think you do everything right and your child will turn out to be a scholar; remember we can only hope our kids go for the best and some times life is full of surprises! Just be careful what you speak, because we could be blogging about your kids years to come...

SPEECHLESS..SPEECHLESS... I agree with you cold heartedly on everything that you have said! The words that you have just spoke about the situation is true regardless of who has said what. Speechless hit it right on the nail.

I think it's hard to hear opinions like Voice of Reason's but that doesn't bother me as the more it is hard the more likely there is something to what is being said. It is hard to hear the truth as Speechless points out, and the mother's on Hardy Dr are surely doing their best, as hard as that may be to believe when their kids are shooting each other. If the boys are killing each other and otherwise acting like idiots then something has to be done. Maybe we need to put these kids who've had past problems with the law in live-in dorms away from their homes in the summer to separate them from their influences - summer-camp, boot-camp style. Not saying as punishment but as a value-building opportunity with mentors, etc. I think C'ville needs an Alternative School too, to keep the kids learning, whether that be a trade, art, even music - something that keeps them out of the street and maturing through those critical late teen years. The drop-outs are the Community's failures, white or black, we've failed them and sure, they've failed themselves in our minds, but we're lying to ourselves if we think because they've dropped out it will be the last we've seen of them and we're better off for it.

Thank you "Brutally Honest"! And, everything you said, I agreed and that's why I had to back you up...

It upsets me to hear others judge people in those areas and they do not know jack about the people nor the area...only what the media portray. Its talent in those areas, just as well as, Dunlora, Glenmore, Ivy, and any other neighborhood...the system nor society is not giving them a chance to show their talent. Sometimes it only takes one Chance for Change!

People forget what you said word for word and what you actually did, but they NEVER forget how you made them feel...

That is the truth. I just don't think just because you live in a bad neighborhood that it makes you any less of a person and that a person who is living in GLENMORE somewhere is so much better. Its stereotyping thats all it is.

That's obfuscation. Nobody's saying you're a better person for living in Ivy or Glenmore. Many of those people are there because they worked hard, though (moving out of their comfort zone and applying themselves toward a goal - it gets easier to do over time by developing the right habits).

Tell me if this may be true, because I honestly want to know and I think it is critically important: My observation is that pregnancies are occurring in the ghetto by irresponsible young people who don't have a financial plan, the wherewithal, or the work ethic to provide for an innocent new life; then the father moves on. Generations raised under a culture of entitlement, desperation and resentment are ata disadvantage, to be sure. Realistic goals need to be accepted and worked towards(not everyone can become the next American Idol).

I hope this helps.

While we're on the subject, I may as well get it all out. That way I can be sure I've touched on everything that I think is important, and I know the truth is out there somewhere.

We don't deserve scorn because we live in Dunlora, are viewed as part of some privileged class and perceived as successful. Everything's expensive; we pay our own way,and that's stressful, too. I trust no one is gleefully hoping my child will prove me wrong. I believe I've got the situation under control, but I can only try my best every day - and I continue to do so. We're doing homework again today, in preparation for school starting up soon.

I can tell you about hate firsthand, from being accosted and assaulted right here in C'Ville (and called "spam" to boot) - and the cops did NOTHING. I see the glares as I drive by. It's chilling.

I'd go to a job interview dressed for the part, and I'd do things the way they wanted me to. I wouldn't expect to be a big shot at first, maybe never, but I'd get respect for being reliable and having my heart in my work. The work that supports your family gives your life dignity. I had little in the beginning, not even health benefits; but over time, things came to me. People actually consider me generous and kind - I'm happy to share what I have, and I like to see other people tending their garden, too. I'm likable, but I'm opinionated (gee, do you think?) and brook no nonsense. It's difficult not to be able to be honest and speak your mind whenever and wherever, but you gotta play the game. Anyway, most people balk at anything that upsets their world view or gets their stomach bubbling when all they want to know is what you did over the weekend. (I appreciate this forum to let it all hang out).

Peace out.

HOLD ON...I am confused! I know what it might of been that guy that was assaulted on 10th St not too long ago. You stated you was assaulted and the police did nothing! Well, you can not judge all people from those areas based off of what happened to you.

For instance, I would be wrong to dislike you because of your skin color. You had nothing to do with segregation--or did you? But, do you get my point? I like ALL people and enjoy interacting with all cultures--my parents raised me to love everybody not mattering of the color of their skin.

I know hard working white people and black people not in Hardy Dr but that live a few blocks away and they own/rent their home. They even invite you to BBQ, baby showers, and mix-n-mingle with everybody else. And, they have kids and their kids play outside with everybody else. That street is a "BIG FAMILY" so everybody looks out for each other.

You might of lived a sheltered life or something. And, I would not wish NO harm on your kid(s) or for your kids(s) to DO harm to others--all I am saying, life is full of surprises. You never know-- my mother and father did not know about my brother, but do to the values and morals that was installed as a child--he had a successful story in the end.

So, stay working hard with your kid(s); that's what you suppose to do!I have been teaching my child since I was pregnant and still am-- reading and saying A, B, C's and the 1, 2, 3's! So, its important to start when they are young--that I can not knock you for. I commend you!

I commend you ad well Voice of Reason. I've been teaching my children since they were in the womb as well but the only thing I can do is teach them everything they need to know and teach them right from wrong. I also teach them the correct ways of the world and how to be successful but as many may know we can always have high hopes for our children but we never know what could end up happening later in their lives when they are young adults and not under our wing anymore. I wish no harm upon your family or kids. I wish the best for your kids so no one thinks that your kids will grow up to harm others. You made a good and valuable point SPEECHLESS.