Rape myth: Critics say UVA police sent the wrong message

The fall semester kicked off at UVA with troubling news: two rapes reported in the same week in late September. But additionally disturbing to some sexual assault survivors was language used in a public warning sent out in the aftermath of the first attack.

According to the September 23 email to the UVA community from UVA Police Chief Mike Gibson, sent the day of the first rape, some men reach a "point of no return," after which, such words suggest, some men just can't stop themselves.

That email offers "a seductive, almost bodice-ripper quality to the horror of rape by saying rape is clearly a sexual act, while we know it is one of violence," says sexual assault victim advocate Liz Seccuro. She's the former UVA student whose 1984 assault while lying unconscious in a fraternity house resulted in a prosecution more than two decades later, after her assailant sent her a letter of apology.

"It's utterly offensive," Seccuro asserts via email, pointing out that the point-of-no-return is widely considered a myth and further objecting to what she sees as the "laughably incorrect" suggestion that "pretty much anyone can 'turn into a rapist.'"

That part of the chief's email appears to have been copied verbatim from several websites alleging that men who rape can't resist their own urges and that many actually believe that the victim will enjoy it.

"It does such a great disservice to the thousands of honorable men who populate the University community," Seccuro says. "It's like saying I could turn into a vampire."

Gibson's missive, which offered support information, did point out that it's never the victim's fault; and UVA's top support official defends the chief even as she acknowledges flaws in the message.

"It upset a lot of people, and I understand why," says Claire Kaplan, Director of Sexual and Domestic Violence Services, who says she doesn't believe that Gibson or anyone in his department intended to perpetuate a myth.

"I think this was an issue more of unintended consequence," adds Kaplan, praising Gibson for making an effort to warn and educate the UVA community while noting that she and other assault experts have offered the police department assistance in crafting future missives.

Gibson himself acknowledges the wording of the email was poor but that its motive was noble.

"The message on the recent assault was meant to be a strong signal that we are tremendously concerned about student safety, and, in particular, sexual assaults," writes Gibson, noting that "communications around sexual assault require a great deal of sensitivity– and clarity."

Having received both positive and negative feedback about the message, Gibson says, he plans to accept the offers of messaging assistance. 

Regardless of the wording, the two assaults provide frightening evidence that sexual assault remains an all-too-frequent occurrence at UVA and at other college campuses around the country.

In the first publicly reported attack on a UVA student, a 17-year-old was allegedly raped after being forced into a bathroom in an apartment on Wertland Street. Two days later, September 25, her alleged assailant, 21-year-old Charlottesville resident Manneh Vay, was arrested at his home and charged with rape, sodomy, and abduction. Because that attack occurred off campus, Charlottesville Police are handling the investigation. Vay's bond hearing is scheduled for October 5 in Charlottesville-Albemarle Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court, because of the age of the victim.

The second reported rape occurred between Monroe Hall and Brown College on University Grounds just after midnight on September 28. The victim in that case has described her assailant as a slender white male, approximately 6'2" with brown hair, blue eyes, and wearing a light-colored short-sleeved shirt and blue jeans. The UVA police department is leading that investigation, although a bill known as Kathryn's Law, passed last year and named for another UVA rape victim, requires all campus police departments to enter into "mutual aid" agreements with local police departments when investigating rape and murder.

The rapes come just a month after George Huguely was sentenced to 23 years for the 2010 murder of his former girlfriend Yeardley Love, and occurred the same week Playboy magazine named UVA the number one party school in the country and ranked it number two for sex. That's certainly not the reputation the school is seeking, but Seccuro says a magazine ranking is nothing to worry about.

"What's wrong with responsible partying and consensual sex?" asks Seccuro. "Both are awesome."

It's other statistics that chill her.

"Rape and murder," she says, "that's a ranking to challenge."

111 comments

At the risk of offending, we don't all know all rape is an act of violence as opposed to a sexual act. It doesn't make sense to shoehorn every rape like that IMO. Certainly, some statutory rape would seem to be sexual, not violent, and a passed out rape like what apparently happened to Ms. Seccuro could be driven by a sexual desire also.

I also don't see that eityher of these two rapes have anything to do with partying, especially the second.

So where's the email?

Hey Red -- when a woman is attacked, it's an act of violence called rape. When a woman is passed out and cannot give consent, it's an act of violence called rape. Both are felony crimes and need to be investigated as felony crimes.

My biggest concern would be that the UVA police determine that this rape was somehow provoked by the female -- or that she failed to communicate her unwillingness to participate. There will be a great deal of interest in how the UVA Campus police proceed since Gibson testified to the General Assemb;ly that his police were better trained than the Charlottesville Police in resolving rape crimes. The proof will be in the investigation.

My first questions -- Did they immediately notify the Commonwealth Attorney's Office that a rape crime had been reported to their department? Did they assist the victim in obtaining a rape test? If the answer to these questions is no, then they failed. If the answer to these questions is yes, then they learned something during the HB2490 debate.

Susan, no one is disputing that both are felony crimes. That isn't really relevant to the discussion.

There is no suggestion at all that the second rape was consented to in any way, nor that the victim knew her attacker.

Mars and Venus.

@red - Fact: Statistical studies indicate false reports make up 2 percent or less of the reported cases of sexual assault. This figure is approximately the same for other types of crimes. Only one out of 10 rapes are actually reported. Rapes by someone the victim knows are the least likely to be reported.

Rape is an act of physical violence and domination that is not motivated by sexual gratification.

Myth: Once a man gets sexually aroused, he can't just stop.
Fact: Men do not physically need to have sex after becoming sexually excited. Moreover, they are still able to control themselves after becoming aroused.

Fact: Rapists do not select their victims by their appearance. They select victims who are vulnerable and accessible. Victims of sexual assault range in age groups from infants to the elderly. Sexual attractiveness is not an issue.

Roger Williams University
Rape Myths and Facts

When a woman or man says "NO", it means "NO".

Sexual violence on campus: Rape victims feel pressure not to tell

Troubling statistics show that many rape victims don't ever go to the police.
Columbia Spectator
By Valeriya Safronova
Published April 14, 2011

"The Center for Disease Control states that in a 2008 study, 20 percent to 25 percent of women in college reported experiencing an attempted or completed rape. To give a geographically narrower view of the prevalence of rape, the Police Department has released that during the first quarter of 2011 there was a 24 percent increase in reported rape cases.

An even more troubling statistic arose out of a recent report commissioned by the White House Council on Women and Girls. Between 2004 and 2008, 54 percent of females who affirmed having been raped said the police were never notified. Rape is a crime—so why do more than half of women who are victimized not contact the police?"

"1 in 10 victims of rape is male." Usually the Sandusky method of rape.

"Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that when rape was defined as oral or anal penetration, one in 71 men said they had been raped or had been the target of attempted rape, usually by a man they knew."

New York Times
By RONI CARYN RABIN
Published: January 23, 2012

@red - Susan's comments are completely relevant to this discussion. What are you thinking? You were disputing the crimes in a passive way.

Red: "Susan, no one is disputing that both are felony crimes. That isn't really relevant to the discussion."

So, Red, what is relevant to this discussion?

It is simplistic to say that rape is a violent crime, not a sexual crime. It is more correct to say rape is first a crime of violence and second a sex crime. Otherwise, serial rapists would not attack 10 women in a row. They might attack 4 women and then go beat the heck of a guy or 2. Don't be simplistic.

It would be instructive to know the experience and credentials of the UVa Police Force. As is well known, you get what you pay for. I've spent a lot of time on campus (whoops, I mean Grounds) and have never seen a UVa officer out of a car. I've been there with some very high profile individuals and their bodyguards and, again, have never seen a UVa officer. I was on the Lawn recently late in the evening and, again, never saw a UVa officer.

As a senior administrator at high profile university in a major metropolitian area, I am used to seeing campus security especially at night.

Rape is rape. You can't color it pretty. Go to any ER at night, especially on weekends and you will likely find a rape victim or a victim of domestic violence. As said earlier NO is NO!

At a school that is rated #1 for partying and #2 for sex, perhaps it is time to get serious about all of these issues.

Maybe if Ms. Dragas was raped more attention might be paid to this very harmful issue. UVa BOV get your priorities straight. No more young lives need to be snuffed out because of partying and unwanted sex or relationships. Ms. Love's murder was one more than should have ever happened.

The problem with the word "rape" is that a lot of statisics cited define "rape" as any unwanted sexual contact and that twists the statistics and the conversation. Unwanted sexual contact that is easily stopped in a location where there is no danger of the actual unwanted advance going further (ie a guy groping a girl in a club full of bouncers) is not rape it is sexual assault. It usually is sexual and it is usually not "violent" . It is a completely different animal and should be treated as such because it dilutes how violent and disgusting rape really is. There is another difference. If a woman is "raped" it is never her fault because regardless of where she is or what she is wearing a "rapist" raped her against her will or ability to stop it. A girl who goes out and gets trashed at a frat house without underwear and spends the evening playing tease the sausage that has sex with another guy who is just as drunk and sincerely assumed it was mutual was not raped. She SCREWED UP. It was not an act of violence, It was a mistake and the fact that the guy doesn't feel remorse when she does, does not make it a crime anymore than a guy who gets drunk and has sex with an ugly girl or an aggressive ex girlfriend is raped.

There needs to be a discussion about the difference so that true rapists are slammed as hard as the law can slam em. and stupid frat boys having sex with stupid frat girls don't go to jail and have their lives ruined. People that deny the drunken romps never happen are liars and have it can be proven easily every Saturday morning around 8 am when the girls do their walk of shame.

UVA does not take rape seriously and this article is proof, but to claim that all incidents of intercourse where permission is not given ion triplicate and filed with the court beforehand is not rape and calling those instances rape where most reasonabe people know its BS is what makes true victims of rape keep it quiet.

Deleted by moderator

@ Dave - you are sick & I don't know why Hook will allow this post?

Hello!

Posts like "DAVE" should be monitored by the Hook, why was that post allowed?

@PDl - UVA takes rape very seriously. Rape kits are something the BoV might consider funding with their wealth.

@PDl - you are assuming a lot. "The message on the recent assault was meant to be a strong signal that we are tremendously concerned about student safety, and, in particular, sexual assaults," writes Gibson, noting that "communications around sexual assault require a great deal of sensitivity– and clarity."

Gibson is stating the obvious: rapes on UVA grounds are taken seriously. Rapes take time to investigate. Sometimes victims are found on campus and they don't want to press charges. Sometimes victims have know idea what happened to them because some guy drugged their drink.

Obviously, there is a lot to learn from these terrible experiences at UVA. Obviously, the UVA takes rape very seriously.

Seriously Hook, please remove Dave's comment. It belittles this article and demeans women.

Dave is probably a Sandusky "want to be".

First of all, the only reason for this arrest is because the rapist is not a UVA. Student. Yes, perhaps not racism but certainly discrimination against non-UVA students or personnel. UVA protects their own. The Judge was quoted in Securo's book as saying "UVA is my homeland" and the Commonwealth Attorney told her the very early release of her rapist was a paperwork error. He served 5 months out of a 10 year sentence. Good old UVA boy's club at work.

When was the last prosecution of a UVA student for rape besides the Securo case where the rapist confessed to the crime? Many moons ago!

When was the last time UVA "expelled" a rapist? Over 10 years ago!

This underscores UVA's policy where rape is not something that they recognize within the community.

This policy is clearly and unequivocally reflected in a cautionary email that UVA Vice-President, Patricia Lampkin, sends periodically to students before events like Halloween and Foxfields. This was addressed by a student in a public forum:

dubdubdub washingtoncitypaper dot com/blogs/sexist/2010/04/26/the-university-of-virginia-excells-in-rape-euphemism/

This is how they warn UVA students of the danger of a drunken a horse race:

"If you are intoxicated, your impaired judgment places you at a much greater risk for the following: injuries; sexual activity that is later regretted or deemed to have lacked consent; or a police citation. Plan not to drink or set a drink limit for yourself and stick to it."

They never warn the male students not to take advantage of females that are totally intoxicated! You know the sex they might regret having with a drunk girl!

THIS IS UVA's POLICY. We cannot even say it's unwritten!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Gibson's wording only confirms and endorses this warped thinking. All we need now is for Sullivan to come out and defend them. After all she remains very silent............

OK, some men can't stop themselves. But that changes nothing about the law. If anyone by physical force or by guile has their way with another person, then we have rape. Gender of one or the other doesn't matter. Pure and simple. And we have penalties, pure and simple. Let's move on.

Penalties are put in place only when an arrest occurs. The VA Crime Commission conducted an extensive study last year and the results were astounding: there were zero arrests made by campus police (all Virginia campuses in school year 2010-2011) when student-on-student campus rapes were reported.

@GSGeare "And we have penalties, pure and simple. Let's move on"

No, sorry, not to burst your bubble but at UVA there are no real penalties. There in lies the problem, it's called COVER UP. You can move on until it touches your skin.

This policy is not really about rape. This policy is all about UVA and what they consider best for them.

@moi - do you want to further the discussion or have it shut down. You wanted this dialog. Hook spent days preparing it, and now you find fault. I am done commenting and reading when I see your post. You are a narcissist and have no clue about progress. You get lost in your own wild thoughts. Please go away!

this could have resulted in progress...too bad for your one sided attacks against UVA.

???????? @ moi - YOU MAKE NO SENSE

@jsG - REALLY? that simple, and let's move on? Interesting. You apparently have not been raped. Men can stop themselves unless they are deranged. Stop this stupidity! No wonder UVA cannot get a firm grasp of this issue.

Please be sensitive. Two women have just become victims of violent crime. Their lives have been forever altered. It is up to us to make sure that they receive justice. All we can do is monitor the police response and hope that the investigation is handled properly.

moi was found to be some illusive poster, commenting on articles off subject.

Here, she gets an entire article dedicated to the subject she wants covered and sabotages it.

well, moi, you make no sense at all. who cares about the background of a rapist. rapists are rapists. in court. moot. a crime is a crime. done.

moi, you had an excellent opportunity and you blew it. good-nite!

@moi - way to go! Back on the real mess: DRAGAS MUST RESIGN

@done

I'm a narcissist for bashing UVA's policy? I agree with this article and I am very happy that the Hook is addressing the one sided view that UVA officials have on the subject of RAPE.

You are against rape but not against UVA? Do I have this right? Do you work for UVA by any chance? You're just too conflicted between your pocket and your conscience! You see, I'm against rapists and I despise those who aid and abet rape by covering it up. That includes UVA. If that makes me a narcissist, then I am guilty as charged. Better to be a narcissist than a sell out!

It is too bad that we cannot be honest with ourselves when discussing matters of a sexual nature. The more one knows about sexual behavior, the more difficult it is to give simplistic statements. We are fools when we base our statements and observations on what we want the correct answers to be, rather than on the complexity of possibilities. Bases on the article, the police chief said nothing inaccurate, though it was unwise, given the prejudicial response of many readers.

Gibson's notification, though poorly written, is called mandatory Clery notification and required by law.

Gibson violated the Clery Act back in 2004 when my child was raped by altering the Crime Log entry from "sexual assault" to "suspicious circumstance in Hench dorm". I wrote the Dept of Ed about it and the crime log was returned to its original wording. VP Lampkin wrote the response for UVA and stated that it was an unfortunate accident and that the mistake occurred during a computer backup. It's funny how during a computer backup phrases will change! Changing the crime log is a serious violation but UVA was able to table dance its way out of it by lying to the DOE investigator -- but the fact was, they changed the log so that potential students would not see that a rape occurred on grounds.

As a parent, I expected UVA cops to handle my child's crime just as the local cops would. That was not to be - not for her and not for many other women who were raped on that campus. What people never seem to understand is that the police report HAS to be detailed and accurate - any mistake in that report thwarts the process and allows the perp to go free -- and in my daughter's case - gives him the ability to strike again. For many years I have asserted that the UVA police report was an inaccurate recording of the crime. The police report contained so many innuendoes -- for example, my daughter told Det Coles that the perp held her down and continually tried to kiss her, and rather than use my daughter's words to document that it was a forceful act, Coles wrote "she remembered kissing him". She didn't kiss him, he held her down and continually forced his lips upon her face. There's a big difference -- and the innuendo it leaves the reader with is that, at some point, she was a willing participant -- leading into Gibson's comment to the students of a "point of no return".

When I fought for HB2490, Gibson and staff made the rounds at the General Assembly and gave copies of that garbage police report to legislators. How do I know? Senator Tommy Norment's admin assistant told me that he had an extensive talk with Gibson and read the report .... It was so wrong of Gibson to circulate that report amongst the legislators, but he did it to smear a victim of violence in order to stop a piece of legislation that would require his police force to work in collaboration with the local force whenever a crime was committed on campus.

My advice to the friends of these two rape victims...take nothing for granted. Assist your young friends. Go to the police with them. Demand that the police document the reports exactly as the actions happened. Do not assume that because the police are investigating that they are really investigating. Insist they get everything documented exactly as it happened. And if you need my help, contact me through my website.

I would hope that the focus of the UVA women's fgroups, Charlottesville NOW, the One in Four group, Frats and Sororities would be on whether or not UVA has learned from these past mistakes, if Sullivan is really in charge of her police force, and if UVA's cops can actually provide good quality investigation to resolve sexual assault crimes. The only way to move forward and protect these young women is to identify and learn from the mistakes of the past. Just trashing UVA over and over will not allow the positive change that is needed to occur. Remember, to you this a crime statistic you toss around on a comment board. To these young women, it is a serious emotional trauma that will remain with them for the rest of their lives.

Susan R is absolutely correct that sexual abuse investigations should be handled by local police, not UVA. The conflict is obvious, and our lawmakers let us down when they did not support the change in the law. Instead they voted not to hurt the feelings of campus cops. Too bad.

Bill -- it's crap like that that allows men to get away with rape. You must buy into the notion that when a girl says don't .. stop...she means don't stop. C'Mon - when a woman walks into a police station and says she's been raped, she is degraded further by vaginal testing and photographs - if the investigation is done PROPERLY. And before you come back and say some men are falsely accused, I am a huge fan of the idea that all women who make false allegations serve jail time.

@Susan. Crap, but a realistic crap. As a middle aged white guy I would think very hard about walking through the gang area of Chicago holding a handful of cash. I SHOULD be able to do this safely and without fear, but there is this little thing called reality.

Those ladies in the videos, wandering around in their underwear and too drunk to be coherant... just sad.

I don't think the woman who was raped last week was participating in a girls gone wild activity. I'm not naive, but I do know that scenes like those in the you tube clips only serve to make us justify and rationalize how rape could happen.

We do not talk openly about rape because the very idea of a man forcing himself onto a woman is revolting. The only rapes that seem to be prosecuted are the ones where a stranger breaks into a house or a woman is found dead and raped in a field. When "acquaintance rapes" occur, people assume that the woman must have done something to cause it to happen. These people are confusing rape with sex; that false assumption is the way they ease their conscience when they choose not to hold the man accountable and responsible for his actions. No other crime is handled this way. No other crime victims are treated this way.

So sorry for the pain this girls went through....It's truly sickening what some people in our community are capable of...

What is the legal difference between a rape, and a sexual assault?

From some of the comments here I think they subscribe to the "legitimate rape" category some idiotic Senator to be put out there.

Rape is rape. It is not sexual and even if said male was "teased" by some drunken co-ed at a party while drinking - the moment she says "NO" or rejects his advances he should walk away. Parents should teach their sons just that. Granted, with society and all that is in the media, that definitely doesn't. And to take advantage of a drunk or passed out person - what does that state about the person doing the crime.

Susan is right, if it is an "acquaintance" rather than some stranger, police investigate differently. We need to know that for a woman to step forward and report such violation is a very brave and admirable thing to do. (And it extends to sexual harassment too.) Think of it this way, these women who were raped (be it by a stranger or by someone they knew), by stepping forward make it so that perhaps your daughter, sister, wife, or other female out there does not become the next victim.

Truly, UVA Police shouldn't handle these incidents and judging from the communication sent out - that is clear evidence. UVA should turn any reports of any violent act over to the Charlottesville, Albemarle or State Police. UVA Police are nothing but hospital rent-a-cops; JPJ security and keeping the students on the sidewalks on Frat Row so they don't get run over by traffic. That has been a long fact and the other police forces in the area have that opinion of them too.

And any student who is convicted of a violent crime should be expelled. I don't care if it is some prime athlete.

@SusanR - You're not going to convince any narrow minded men that there is a difference between rape and consensual sex. The narrow minded ones thinks rape is when a man jumps out of the bushes and over powers a woman, beats her and has his way with her. Even some of these will say she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed.

"No" to these men is just a negotiation issue. A woman can say "No" ten times and the narrow minded man will think he's still negotiating. In a UVA hearing they will believe the man you will claim she eventually said "yes" . well she didn't say yes but she didn't eventually say no so I went ahead, and because the woman can't physically prove she was drugged or drunk and it's not important that the man has been proved to have lied on many other things they are obliged to believe the man because it's their policy. This is how all UVA proceedings are conducted. Sorry!

Rape should be a matter for local police but the problem in Cville is that UVA influences the police and the prosecutor. The police/prosecutor after a pseudo investigation always tell UVA victims sorry there's not enough evidence and that's why no UVA students have been convicted of rape in many years. So the girl files a complaint with the UVA sexual misconduct board for a standard procedure cover up and that's why not one student has been expelled for sexual assault in over 10 years.

Under sharia law a woman needs two witnesses to prove she was raped. Under UVA procedures and Cville authorities no amount of witnesses or evidence is enough because they have insidious ways of making evidence disappear.

The rapist in the mug shot above is being prosecuted because he's not a student. The other blonde hair blue eyed dude, a college student, has yet to be caught and then prosecuted.

@moi: This case is the first real test for Sullivan and Gibson to resolve since they spent hundreds of thousands of University dollars fighting HB 2490. I do think whomever committed the campus rape will be prosecuted because this is the first case Sullivan and Gibson have to prove the campus police are capable of conducting rape investigations.

Rape IS Rape. If a girl gets drunk and cannot say no it is rape. If a girl gets drunk and mumbles no it is rape. If a girl gets drunk and has sex with a guy she would have normally turned down that is not rape and calling it rape demeans the true meaning of the word. If the guy is sober enough to realize he is taking advantge of her drunkensss then you have a debatable question, but to just allow women to act like the girls in these videos and then after the fact seek protections for their bad choices is not good nor fair public policy. If a guy gets drunk and has sex with his ex girlfriend when he otherwise would not have was he raped? Should she be put away for life?

Rape should be defined as an unwanted sex act occuring against someones will or presumed desires. Sexual "assault" is an unwanted sexual advance that does not meet the standard of rape and is presumed to be not an attempt at rape.

So if a girl gets wasted and passes out and is even fondled that is RAPE. If a girl gets drunk at a party and grinds against a guy and the guy squeezes her chest that may or may not be an arrestable offense especially if she already let three other guys do it in the previous 15 minutes. She needs to be insulted and tell him he crossed the line or she needs to establish the line beforehand like the other girls at the party who were not acting like her.

It is unproductive to allow women the right to put a guy in jail because two people got drunk made a mistake and one regrets it.

@Bill Marshall: I believe the cops have already determined that a crime has been committed. All the women who have repeatedly written The Hook have stated that their rapes were violent and traumatic and yet the cops did nothing. Any man, when qquestioned by the police, will say it was consensual sex. Who would admit to committing rape. That's why a proper investigation must be done. If someone robbed your house you would expect the police to conduct a thorough investigation - why should a victim of sexual assault expect anything less?

Chief Gibson write the following to the students:

"Be aware that a seemingly nice, regular individual can turn into a rapist.
There are some men who are more likely to be sexually aggressive than
others. Characteristics can include someone who:

* Does not listen to you, talks over you or pretends not to hear you.
* Ignores your personal space boundaries.
* Does what he wants, regardless of what you want.
* Expresses excessive anger or aggression towards women in general.
* Acts excessively jealous or possessive.
* Drinks heavily.

Many perpetrators do not pre-meditate their indecent acts. They actually
believe that the victim will enjoy it and won't say no. Anger,
embarrassment, resentment, and selfishness take over and the perpetrator
arrives at "the point of no return." A woman cannot always prevent a rape.

@susanR

They have prosecuted other cases but only when the rapist is not a UVA student. However, they always torpedo the student on student rapes and always will until UVA changes their policy. Why is this so difficult to understand?

@Bill Marshall

There was a girl earlier this year that filed a complaint to the police and uva. she was in a concert and this drunk dude came up to her and started groping her and grinding her. She had a fit and moved away but he continued telling her "what's up bitch, you don't want to dance" and was all over her. Her friends came to her assistance and within 5 minutes they were able to id him on facebook. the police did nothing! not sure what uva did but apparently this is not reason enough to be expelled. THIS IS SEXUAL ASSAULT in any other town or city in the country! At uva he was probably forced to apologize when he sobered up. Sorry don't drink if you can't control yourself. If he had lied or cheated it would be a single sanction and out. Why the double standard?

What type of sodomy is the victim alleging?

@Dave - focus on getting Dragas removed due to poor leadership and lack of trust. Focus on the accreditation of UVA. You have a warped mind.

I believe if UVA had better leadership among the BoV, particularly Rector Dragas, then UVA can progress. The BoV is stagnant and ill prepared for the safety of UVA students.

Dragas should have considered the safety of all students first and foremost. What has she done to protect the UVA women?

Why is UVA not getting rid of Rector Dragas? Rectors and key administrators from all educational venues care about the student safety right along with their education.

@Dave: Do you have an IQ?

Is there any information as to whether the as yet unidentified rapist had any facial hair or what type or color of vehicle he may have been driving?

Should someone contact the UVA police with the report of a suspicious individual elsewhere in town that day, or Albemarle County PD?

another "rapist" goes free.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2213805/Romantic-moment-sex-assa...

People like this blogger are why others don't take things seriously....

@Ponce

Just because one blogger makes a statement it doesn't mean it's valid. This was a celebration of the end of WW2. Had she slapped him in disgust then perhaps it could be a misdemeanor? An unwanted attempt to kiss a girl in a party can easily be rejected. Someone groping a woman's breasts and crotch from behind is SEXUAL ASSAULT. You are trying to ridicule sexual assault but if someone came and groped your wife, mother or daughter on the crotch and fondled their breasts and said that's what they wanted you would not think it acceptable.

There was a recent case:
http://www.readthehook.com/90945/felony-case-judge-calls-bottom-grab-mis...

Note the victim is a former UVA student but the perp is not. So he gets prosecuted for sexual battery but had it been a UVA student it is treated differently. I agree with the victim that the punishment is a joke.

My point is that when the perps are UVA students nothing is done.
Show me one prosecution of a student on student sexual assault in Cville besides the Securo case?

@moi - no one can. It was reported by the VA Crime Commission that those crimes do not result in arrest - ergo no case to prosecute. It is a fact, not myth, as well that UVA has not expelled one sinsgle student in the past 10 years even when found guilty by a school sexual assault board. But ya know what ---- the little feminist groups on campus NEVER seize this as a point during sexual assault awareness month. They don't care - until it happens to them.

The girl having her bottom grabbed only had a case because she dated a lawyer....it was not as violent as some of the rapes that the Commonwealth Attorneys fail to prosecute. (Sorry, just saying....)

And Seccuro's case was only prosecuted because he admitted to the crime. Liz's testimony was not enough for anyone to take her case. If Beebe had not written the letter, Seccuro would never have had justice.

@Red, I agree with you about raping a passed out woman. If a man wanted to commit violence it would make more sense for him to beat her up to make sure she feels the violence. While passed out, she's comatose and often wakes up not knowing someone was using her body for what amounts to masterbatory sex. Since he finds sexual satisfaction, his motives are apparently sexual.

Raping a woman who is passed out is a violent act of control . If the woman is passed out & cannot consent & a male decides to "go ahead" that is not a female giving her consent , it is a male who decides to go ahead . A passed out female cannot say No , Nor can a passed out woman fight back .

Raping a woman who is passed out IS rape, but it is not an act of violence it is an act of opportunity and it is WRONG to equate the two as identical for the purposes of discussion.

Answer this: If we give a guy life for putting his penis in a girls mouth while she is passed out at a frat party how many years do we give the guy who holds her down sober with a gun to her head and makes her do the deed?

My point is that there are a lot of people (men and women) who believe that women do have some personal responsbility to not place themselves in dangerous places. Alcohol affects judgment on both sides and we are in a place with moral values where there are a lot of sluts out there and things are different than 1960. In 1960 there was a pretty clear distinction between the "good girls" and the "others" nowadays, not so much. girls come to the paries have naked, driunk, giving off all kinds of mixed signals and feigned approval for advances. The proof is all over youtube (and you porn) for all to see.

UVA should do better with prosecutions, no doubt and no argument here but we still need to have a consensus about why it is that some women think that they have the right to collapse drunk at a party with no underwear on and then get somebodies life ruined for putting the pictures on the internet. If they want to be equal then they need to be arrested for rape if they were the aggressor and the next day the guy decides HE made a mistake.

Duke is leading the way to curb this problem while you people are trying to figure out if raping a passed out girl is an act of violence......honestly, it's a no-brainer. You must be the same people who wanted the personhood bill passed. You want every fetus to be born, but you don't care about the rights of a passed out woman. Neither can speak when the violence is upon them.

http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/duke-eliminates-statute-limitations...

Hey Ponce -- how many cases in Charlottesville resulted in a man being sent to prison for life for putting a penis in a woman's mouth? Argue from fact, not myth. Even Huguely didn't get life.

@Leon

I'll refrain from insulting you but perhaps like most people you will understand the concept if some explains it to you in terms of money. Nobody deserves to get raped as nobody deserves to get roobed.

If I steal your wallet whilst you are asleep on a train are you responsible because you were asleep? No! Perhaps foolish but you cannot be responsible for the crime nor for the person that steals your wallet. Putting your penis in a sleeping woman's mouth is sexual assault, even in a frat house and you should be expelled the same way if you stole a wallet. I know that might sound like a spoiler to you frat boys but it's a sobering reality.

pam and moi... did you not read what I said? It IS rape to have sex with a passed out woman... but it is less severe than someone who sits in an alley with a knife and holds down a fighting victim. Just like it is a different crime to steal the wallet of a passed out guy on the bus and robbing him at knifepoint.... stealing the wallet was not VIOLENT and especially in the case of two college kids getting too drunk and having sex when they are both too drunk to make a responsible decision and one ends up regretting it that would not be a crime of violence either.

My points are that yes UVA needs to do better BUT that includes a conversation about making responsible choices. Don't fall asleep on the bus, don't drink so much that you make bad decisions and live your life so that if you make an accusation people will believe it without question. It is just a nessasasry fact of life. Poor Morgan Harringtons name was dragged through the mud because she was intoxicated. Yeardly love's credibility was questioned because she slept with her boyfriends rival. Neither of these issues SHOULD have been part of the equation but they were and they always will be because it raises questions in peoples minds as to whether they had a part in their own demise. We need to teach women that actions have consequencesand that they need to take the iniitative to common respect for their own bodies and virtues. This means that they need to drink a little less and look out for each other a little more. Like it or not we live in a sexually liberal society where there are lota and lots of girls who are happy to "hook up" drunk or otherwise and this gives a false impression because of guilt by association. So lets be fair... explain the rules to the guys, but expect females to take some personal responsibility and make sure they don't give out the wrong impression. How hard is it to find someobody (or sombodies) you trust and ask them to look out for you.

Then prosecute the rapists to the fullest extent of the law.

Ponce ... you are judging before the crime is investigated -- which is exactly what the UVA cops do.

You are confusing rape with sex. Rape is not sex. Rape is an act of empowerment.

I totally disagree with you that raping a passed out woman is not violent. Do you have any idea how violated she feels when she realizes someone took liberty with her body while she was passed out. I do know that feeling and it is not pleasant. And it never leaves your mind - ever.

To revictimize the victim is the reason rapists are never prosecuted. You obviously don't understand that. There's no need for me to continue to try and debate that with you.

@ponce

Point taken.

@pam
"To revictimize the victim is the reason rapists are never prosecuted. You obviously don't understand that. There's no need for me to continue to try and debate that with you."

That premise is absolute croc. There are some victims who might not be upto sitting through a prosecution but many want to see their rapist prosecuted and are willing but their cases are scuttled. This premise is just what UVA/Cville and other prosecutors hide behind. Just look at the number of rapes prosecuted in NoVa and New York City, especially acquaintance rapes, which are typically the most difficult cases. Cville doesn't prosecute ANY acquaintance rapes? Why? Is that why it's such a safe place to live?

moi-have you been raped? You have a lot of anger issues. I have been through the process and whenever a victim reports a rape and doesn't go through the process, then as far as I am concerned, she is an accessory to a crime.What activism do you participate in to make Charlottesville a safe place? Are you a student or a resident?

Sorry, but I agree with Pam.

@tinker

Fortunately I haven't been but unfortunately I have been there for victims and heard the horrors first hand. Perhaps you interpret a tone in my posts but actually I'm not angry as anger is not productive. However, I am very determined in exposing UVA/Cville for the cover ups of UVA student rapes because there have been hundreds of damaged lives directly related to the pain, anguish and helplessness from the cover ups. Young women who totally trusted the institution who have not only been betrayed but have literally been told by UVA that its their fault.

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me as Pam posted, "To revictimize the victim is the reason rapists are never prosecuted." This infers that the victims are "never" able to go through a prosecution. I disagreed and said that's some but many are willing to endure the hardships of prosecution. What I can say is that most female students would prosecute if they actually thought the system worked. But if you are a UVA student and you hear that not one UVA student has been expelled or prosecuted why would you expose yourself to a sham hearing or reporting it to the police. The few that report it hope to see change only to get squashed.

I am doing my own things to change the system and I am hoping to see things happen that will expose what I consider to be criminal activity. I might not achieve everything I want to but I'm going to put a big dent in it.

The young girls of UVA deserve a chance to file charges and get justice if they have been raped.

By reporting it to the police, it becomes a matter of record. Every woman who has been assaulted must report it because if the perp remains free you endanger the Next Girl to become his victim....

I do not buy into the fact that women do not report it because UVA will do nothing. That was the way it was in 2004. Report it directly to President Sullivan in writing. She cannot "do nothing" anymore.

@susan
You put too much trust in Sullivan. Reporting has actually gone down since Casteen left. It used to be about 30 annually in the 2000s and I believe it was about 13 in 2011 and still no expulsions. She supposedly agreed to the Dear Colleague letter and reduced the standard from "clear and convincing" (75%) to the "preponderance of evidence" (50). Does Sullivan think the problem went away even when the standard for the victim to prove her case was lowered? Some have tried to blame Casteen but she's been there two years with new rules!

If reporting has gone down, then tell me what new approach have the women's focus groups done to assist female victims since the Dear Colleague letter was released? Are women being talked out of reporting this crime because the first responders are too negative and talk them out of going to the police?

The sins of the past will bear repeating if you do not work with President Sullivan.

Any woman who substitutes judicial action for a student run school Sexual Assault Board is not going to get the justice she seeks. The SAB is every woman's waste of time and energy and I would NEVER recommend this course of action. A sexual assault crime should be investigated and handled by the local police and Commonwealth Attorney.

Tell me, are you a student or an employee of UVA?

@susan
you're missing the point. If Sullivan didn't know what was going on she knows now. But why didn't she know what the Dean of Students office is up to?

For those that don't know the background. Obama's Sec. of Education, Arne Duncan, made some great changes (for all you Rs I believe Romney has commended them so this is not even a political debate except for loons like Akin).
They lowered the standard to "preponderance of the evidence" (this is the standard used in all "civil law suits") from the "Clear and Convincing" standard (used in criminal cases) for College Hearings. Even though there are mens groups fighting this the lower standard is fair because what goes on at College hearings is not punishable by a prison sentence, at worst it's expulsion from the school and hence more similar to a civil case where the loser normally pays money damages.

Well in the case of UVA the working document for the new procedures had this change but then someone last minute changed the required votes of the panel deciding a case under the new procedures. I have a copy of the working document of the new rules that shows how the new procedures were developed. The original draft had by a "majority vote" of the panel. This was changed a few weeks before they announced the new procedures signed by "Sullivan". They changed it to a "unanimous" vote. In other words a victim would need to convince each of the 5 panel members and conversely the accused only needed to convince one of the five panel members to break the unanimous decision. Totally unfair and inequitable and this shows the bias UVA has in favor of the accused. One of the Deans explained it, to my disbelief, as "we lowered the bar to preponderance so it was only fair to raise the bar on the other end to unanimous. This shows the intent was not to make it fairer but to subvert the Dept. of Education's mandate that forced them to lower the standard. Then in a total irony Lampkin and Davis at the press conference last year took credit for being so magnanimous and adopting these changes as if it were a new doctrine of their own creation and UVA's new procedures would serve as a model to other Universities when in fact the new "preponderance" standard was forced on them by OCR. Then to boot if this new revised policy had a "fix" in it favoring the accused and he was further helped by the way they conduct bogus investigations that are more focused in censoring evidence and muzzling witnesses by falsely dismissing them, ensuring a victory for the accused. Hence no expulsions!

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Sullivan will do something different. Has she seen the Dean of Students expel anyone to date? She knows the stats very well and yet she's clearly not disturbed that her new rules have been ineffective?vAre the lovely folks in the DoS office doing these things behind her back? Who's fooling who her? Talk and rhetoric is cheap. What is actually being done?

I am very well versed in the Dear Colleague Letter. It didn't all go quite down as you explain -- these changes are not new, the schools were put on notice that they would be fined if they did not comply with the correct Standard of Proof.I have an active OCR complaint with the DOE for Title IX violations and I understand there is also a private lawsuit pending as well. (BTW, I don't have any objection to a unanimous vote for a preponderence of evidence as the Standard of Proof for a guilty verdict - but the SAB is a sham and you cannot believe that it is the correct forum to handle a rape case. The entire process is a joke.)

Listen, take a little advice from me. Attacking Sullivan is not going to do anything but raise your blood pressure. If you know of a case that was handled improperly, ask the woman who was not given due diligence to go to the press. There were no students willing to accompany me to the General Assembly last year to discuss HB2490 - they may be mad, but not mad enough to show their faces in public. That's why it takes so long to change things - either you have to pony up and know you will be out there in the public eye and open to scrutiny, or else you risk being the 99% that sits back and grumbles. As a matter of fact, I don't think you were there either to testify. So, unless you want things to change, you have to argue from fact and not emotion.

And as for your comments that nothing is changing, Casteen was an ass -- but Sullivan will make a difference. Unless you've noticed, she has an entire BOV breathing down her back. Strine was an insider and worked to get rid of her. Who can she trust to move forward with her vision??

I commend you for wanting to change the process -- the first step is to use your real name on a board and publicly stand up for what you believe in. And I would recommend you - and all the community - fight to have the laws changed so that local law enforcement works in collaboration with the local police whenever a felony rape occurs on a college campus. We both want the same things - but I fear that all the work we have done thus far is negated when you continue to say that nothing has changed..........

@deafsinger, "Raping a woman who is passed out is a violent act of control" A passed out woman can not be controlled any more than a wet rag.

I agree with most of your post, especially the bogus kangaroo SMB. You should have a problem with the unanimous as a majority vote is the civil standard. But you're right that its pointless when their entire process is rigged.

Since you seem to have an insight could you explain who is behind the policy? Does it stem from the BoV? If not why can't Sullivan clear out the entire DoS office? They're the ones that carry out this callous policy and they have exposed the University to unimaginable damage and she has not fired them. Sullivan knows about them but hasn't pulled the trigger, why? Is she that powerless? If she could get rid of Strine why not all the others?

I have no knowledge of how Sullivan runs her office and I am in no position to comment. I can tell you that I met with Pres Sullivan and her staff and told them what I thought of the way they handle this crime in a very civil, forthright and open manner. That's the best I can do for anyone in your community. If more people wrote her and met with her she would gain a greater insight into the problem.

Susan R and moi... what reponsibilities and precautions do you feel women should be expected to have when going to typical colege frat parties? It sounds like there are no expectations for them to watch out for themselves...

@Ponce
Every unsuspecting first year is told that you can leave your things unattended in the library as it's safe. You know the good old honor code. If someone steals their belongings are they responsible? Some would say yes because they were stupid and some would say no the thief is responsible. Eventually you pay and learn not to leave your stuff. A young woman cannot afford to make that mistake once.

I think common sense dictates that no girl should go to a frat for the very reason that drinks are spiked and those horny frat boys only want one thing. But we're talking about young 17/18 year old girls who are naive and think it won't happen to them. We were all young once!

Look walking in a shady neighborhood after dark is not the act of a responsible person but it doesn't justify a mugging. I think you have clearly acknowledged this and I take your point about responsibility. However, having said that there are many girls who get raped in private parties, in their own houses by suite mates and in their dorms because they feel safe in what they consider their own home. If you have to go through your college days feeling vulnerable, exposed and suspicious of all the guys then its clearly a hostile environment for women and a rather limited college experience. Perhaps if they actively punished this behavior like cheating there would be much less of it. Then the parties would be safer and fun, and UVA would be a much better place. I think we're all adults and understand that UVA cannot put an end to rapes but as we speak they are encouraging it by not punishing it and the guys all know this. It's literally a sport. There's absolutely no deterrent. Come on, when the VP of Student Affairs refers to rape as sex that might be deemed to be regretted, there is something seriously wrong!

moi, thanks for answering. I understand your points. My opinion is that if we want to solve the problem then we need as parents and upperclassmen to educate these girls as to the risks and put some blame on the sluts who get drunk and voluntarily hook up week after week. The problem is these young girls wear the same uniforms and push the envelope which should not but does confuse the boundaries for guys who are quite williing to admit that they like to "hook up" and if a girl needs to be drunk to "do what she wants to do" anyway they arejhappy to let that happen. It is reality and it is the world we live in. So we need to educate the girls and let them know that there are some expectations for them to look out for themslelves, we need to educate them to shun guys who think conquests of drunk girls is okay, and we need to slam the guys to the fullest extent of the law when they cross the line. BUT... if a girl gets drunk and sleeps with a guy when they are both too drunk to make a good decision (and she did so voluntarily at the time) we cannot call that rape because it degrades real rape which is violent and unacceptable.

My goal with my opinion is to reduce the total number of abuses. If we call everything rape then all that will happen is decent women banned from parties becsause of the risk of a false accusation.

Real rape? Is that the same as legitimate rape? Ponce - have you had any sexual assault training? I hear UVA offers the program; you might want to attend.

yeah ... "real rape" as opposed to some spoiled little snowflake who has handled more sausages than jimmy dean ruining a guys life because SHE got wasted and is too embarrased to admit that she is in fact not daddys little girl anymore and somebody needs to pay to save her reputation. Get over it. UVA needs to deal with sexual assualt in a big way. They need to take it more seriously but there are lots of false accusations out there and the law has an obligation to protect those victims too. Just like "rape" has lasting affects, the false accusations last forever too. This can not just be a one sided conversation.

Considering the number of arrests that occur on the campus, zero in the past ten years, it really doesn't matter, does it. Your ignorant rant of spoiled snowflakes and sausages shows that you are not capable of discussing this very sensitive topic. It is a one sided discussion when a woman walks into the police station or the Deans office and reports that she has been sexually assaulted. Very few people believe her.

Considering the number of arrests that occur on the campus, zero in the past ten years, it really doesn't matter, does it? Your ignorant rant of spoiled snowflakes and sausages shows that you are not capable of discussing this very sensitive topic. It is a one sided discussion when a woman walks into the police station or the Dean's office and reports that she has been sexually assaulted. Very few people believe her.

@ponce

I'm not sure where you get your narrative but how many of those "party girls" have actually filed "false" reports. If any student wants to party, drink and engage in casual sex that is her choice. Who are we to judge or question it. However, the law states that it cannot be consensual if she is drunk. Now I doubt very much a drunk male student can perform if he is truly drunk so the scenario that they are both totally wasted doesn't work. The rapes happen when either the girl is drunk and or incapacitated or has been deliberately incapacitated.

To the best of my knowledge I have never heard of a false accusation case at UVA. In the 2000s there were an average of about 30 reports/year. According to the FBI less than 2% of sexual assaults are false.

You completely undermined your position with your choice of words and bias. Why? Why demean? Did that young man in Alabama who was shot by a University cop deserve to die like that because he was drunk/high? He was totally irresponsible. Will that stop all the other students from binge drinking and partying?

@pam
"It is a one sided discussion when a woman walks into the police station or the Dean's office and reports that she has been sexually assaulted. Very few people believe her."
Actually they do believe her because they know its true. They all tell her "we believe you" but then tell her there isn't enough evidence. The chant is "we believe you", "you're believable" but sorry you don't have a case. Knowing very well that she has been raped they willfully and deliberately cover it up with their rigged hearing process. Imagine what happens to these girls when they discover they have been duped and stood no chance. They are raped for the second time by the same people who they trusted to help them and that the entire wahoo family is a sham and that the sacred Jeffersonian "honor" is meaningless and that UVA's Administration and now we know the BoV is all about "dishonor" and "disgrace".

@Pam - UVA settles out of court. Get your facts straight!

@Pdl - you are disgusting! Rape victims are rape victims! 98% are accurate and the majority of all campus rapes are settled out of court.

the Ponce De leon has been accused of rape many times and he is vetting out his anger on this post; do not respond to this idiot who is locked up.

moi is the same person as Ponce De leon. I believe they suffer from dual personality disorder.

so if you follow the thread, they are talking and supporting one another. GET IT?

"If any student wants to party, drink and engage in casual sex that is her choice. Who are we to judge or question it. However, the law states that it cannot be consensual if she is drunk"

That statement is my POINT exactly. If a woman gets drunk and has sex it is her RIGHT... but since the law says she cannot give consent if she is drunk than technically any woman who has sex while drunk is a rape victim. It is absurd on its face.

As for the statement of the guy performing, even if he "tries" it is rape... but if the law is fair why is he not the victim of rape if the girl is the aggressor? There are many instances of "resexing the ex" to keep him off the market. The guy went along because it was fun and he does not really care about his reputation... but many guys surely regret it the next day...Can the guy prosecute? Why not?

I am on the side of prosecuting fully whenever there is a rape or sexual assault, but if the objective is to reduce the numbers of incidents then we need to change peoples values and let our daughters know that while she does have the "right " to get drunk and have casual sex society has the "right" to say "if you want our help putting guys in jail you need to make sure you have evidence so back up your claim. Hence my advice to take precautions, bring a friend or have someone look out for you.
It is NOT too much to ask.

@GYF

I'm actually bipolar! I don't just bark at people for the sake of a cause. I try to be intelligent and reasonable about issues because it's rational behavior. If Leon makes a statement I agree with why would I not acknowledge it. The point of this discussion is to expose UVA deliberately bias rape policy.

By the way just because most parties settle out of court it doesn't make everyone money grabbing. Personally they don't have enough money, they are capped for $2m. I want to see this policy exposed and destroyed because its evil.

Drunk men are held responsible for their behavior.

Here are some suggestions..
1) Have included in tuition the right for any female student at any time to go to the ER and have a rape kit done with only the very basic questioning and the police not notified so that the girl has time to consult family, counnselors and lawyers before a Police officer has the ability to sway her in any direction. This kit will be quaratined and confidential until relased by the student.

2) Have educational seminars where all students are informed that if the words "this is rape" are uttered ALL contact stops immediately or it IS rape if sex occurs within the next 12 hours between the parties, comnsensual or not. This should put the onus on the man to know he is LEGALLY as risk and better stop trying to change her mind.

These two might go a long way towards reducing the number of blurry incidents.

UVA does not settle out of Court for failure to properly investigate rape crimes. Nice myth ....and not based on fact. Too bad this Board is full of crap posts - it could have been a productive posting place to give UVA staff something to think about. So, once has been accused of being a rapist --- is he a twin?? LOL!

UVA does not settle out of Court for failure to properly investigate rape crimes. Nice myth ....and not based on fact.

So Ponce, the drunk girl has to utter "This is rape" because stop and you are huyrting me doesn't indicate to a guy that it is not consensual. You obviously don't understand where to draw the line -- going back to the original Hook Story, you and Gibson both agree that there is a point of no return .... so sad that you both agree......

Ponce has been accused of being a rapist --- is he a twin?? He does sound like a jailhouse lawyer -- maybe his brother is a UVA Law grad? LOL!

Too bad this Board is full of crap posts - it could have been a productive posting place to give UVA staff something to think about.

@pam

We've established that UVA covers up rape allegations. This is an uncontested fact because the facts speak for themselves. What does that say for those who work in Peabody Hall, who see these cases and the respective victims re-victimized month after month. Monstors of society. What kind of person does this work for a salary? or salaries because they usually get jobs for their spouses!

These people walk the grounds.

"So Ponce, the drunk girl has to utter "This is rape" because stop and you are huyrting me doesn't indicate to a guy that it is not consensual. You obviously don't understand where to draw the line" --

If a girl says "this is rape" 99 out of 100 guys will STOP. If a girl says "stop you are hurting me" she might just want me to pull out,roll her over and go back to strait sex.

or maybe I was just on her hair.

If you are getting raped then say so.... you sure stand up for your your vagina when it comes to birth control andf abortions

@fratboyfred

You are vulgar and have no class. You're clearly still a child in an adult body. Grow up! Why don't you talk to your mother like that?

Rape is not dirty sex, it's not kinky sex, it's simply NOT sex. It's a hate crime. Rapists don't stop when they are told. They are opportunists. They use drink drug or force to incapacitate their victims. They are repeat offenders just like any other criminal.

"Rape is not dirty sex, it's not kinky sex, it's simply NOT sex. It's a hate crime. Rapists don't stop when they are told. They are opportunists. They use drink drug or force to incapacitate their victims. They are repeat offenders just like any other criminal."

So from this statement can we deduce that

1) Rape is not sex.
2) Rapists don't stop when they are told.

So if a guy is told to stop and stops is he guilty of rape? No/ maybe.... perhaps telling a woman to be specific is not unreasonable to ask them to do.

Is sex than never rape? So if a guy and a girl get hot and heavy and she comes to her senses in the middle of the act is that "rape" if she tells him to stop and he does?

and no one has answered the question about whether the guy can claim rape if his ex gets him drunk and has sex with him with her as the aggressor and he lays down for the event.

Cause the guy may have his judgment compromised by drugs or alcohol...

What is WRONG with expecting girls to proclaim "this is rape" so that there is a legal boundary crossed that throws the implied permission out the window as a defense.

It seems to me that one would be pretty hard for a cop to ignore.

@pam

UVA is in good company. Look at how Wesleyan treats their female population. UVA puts a better face on it. At least Wesleyan doesn't pretend:
Go Jane Doe....

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/10/09/51110.htm

moi... I read your link... what more can Weslayan have done without violating the students rights to free speech and assembly? ANY actions that go on in a BANNED fraternity are completely out of the control and jurisdiction of the school.

After the fact they should have offered counciling and a refund, but they do not have control over the goings on in a private house anymore than you do. it was a matter for the law.

That is why we need better education of our young men AND women. Their is a shared responsibility that needs to be addressed.

@Bill

My point was that this is a problem in colleges nationwide and I agree Wesleyan is light years ahead of UVA. At least they did something.

No, Wesleyan is not light years ahead. That's a very false statement. They banned the frat in writing, that's all. They didn't board it up. Dumb kids still went there and partied. Just as UVA warns students who go to Foxfields to be careful -- the school can only do so much ... Wesleyan is not like UVA - the campus is open to the city of Middletown and in a high crime area of town. Kids who go there have to be careful because of the normal city dangers -- it is not a peaceful little burb like Charlottesville.

@sally

They actually warned the student body about the dangers "and prohibited students from living at Beta House or using it for social and academic events." Lampkin's foxfields emails don't acknowledge the dangers of rape but only sex that might later be deemed regreted.

The perp got prosecuted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He went to JAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS LIGHT YEARS AHEAD!!!!!

UVA STUDENT DO NOT GET PROSECUTED FOR RAPE IN CHARLOTTESVILLE!!!!! HERE THEY JUST PROSECUTE NON-UVA RAPISTS.

WESLEYAN DIDN'T STOP THE PROSECUTION OR COVER IT UP.

I didn't say Wesleyan is a model to be followed but at least the law is upheld.

moi -- pour a little glass of merlot to calm your nerves and read this excerpt from your article. BTW, the rapist was not a Wesleyan student:

"Doe says the resident assistant at her dorm, a Wesleyan employee, was notified about her rape on Oct. 31, 2011, but the RA "did not notify the police, campus safety, or the administration."
Because the student health services office was closed on Sunday, Oct. 31, Doe says, she did not receive medical attention until Monday. "When she was finally able to seek treatment and report the rape, Wesleyan advised that she could go to the hospital but offered neither transportation nor accompaniment," the complaint states. "Wesleyan did not offer any services or other academic help to Jane Doe, not advising or even allowing her to lessen her course load or withdraw from classes without penalty."
The complaint continues: "After these rapes, Wesleyan again warned the campus community about the risks of attending events at Beta house, and prohibited students from living at Beta House or using it for social and academic events. This spurred campus-wide 'Free Beta' protests and rallies organized by members of Beta, including Beta House residents. Through no fault of her own, Jane Doe's identity had become known to certain Beta and Mu Epsilon members.
"Crowds of 'Free Beta' protesters organized rallies and/or chanted outside Jane Doe's dormitory and in university spaces when she was present. Jane Doe secluded herself, hiding in her room, missing class and meals, and suffering further injury and harm. Jane Doe and her parents requested additional security at her dormitory and academic buildings, but Wesleyan refused those requests, even though the assailant was not arrested until more than two months after the rape. Wesleyan did nothing to prevent, and was deliberately indifferent to, the harm caused to Jane Doe by the rape and outrageous sexual harassment and intimidation that followed here everywhere on campus."

A more detailed article from the leading CT paper, The Hartford Courant:

http://articles.courant.com/2012-10-05/news/hc-wesleyan-rape-lawsuit-100...

And BTW, the law was upheld because the local police were involved, not the campus police. That's the bottom line. But if you were to ask Jane Doe, she doesn't feel anyone at Wesleyan was "there for her", ergo the hefty lawsuit.

Me thinks that no one else will comment on this blog because you and Ponce took over the discussions and made them screams and rants ... not productive when you want to have a discussion. Listen once in awhile and allow others to express an opinion - stop attacking everyone who blogs on these boards.

@Sally

Took your sound advice and drinking a lovely glass of Cabernet. I now see your what you mean!

My gripe is not just with the campus police. It's with the Cville police and the Commonwealth attorney. The detectives have probably given up wasting their time because nobody prosecutes. There are too many incestuous relationships between all these parties and UVA. At least Wesleyan is not influencing the police and prosecutor in such a small town or perhaps it was simply the fact that the perp was not a student at Wesleyan. I don't have access to the stats and who the perps are to form an opinion.

I'm ignoring Ponce's more recent posts because I think they are offensive to mothers, wives, aunts, sisters, daughters and nieces. I also apologize to you if I attacked you, that was not the intent. The big caps were a show of frustration. This is very raw wound right now.

Thanks for your candid posts.

Lets face it, folks. The one rapist had a UVA student ID, and will never be prosecuted. This other guy pictured and in jail did not posses a UVA student ID. That's the difference here. Susan did her best to reign in UVA's private militia regarding such crimes, but she unfortunately failed.

Ask anyone at UVA about how common this all is, and they will tell you privately. But none of them will dare step out of the clique and dare be called a party pooper by messing with UVA's protection of its party scene. The bottom line here is that UVA protects its own, and that includes coke dealers and rapists. Playboy chose their gold medal winner very carefully.

UVA is no different and -- better than most research universities.. in terms of dealing with campus rapes.

women should be protected a bit more.

@Bryan

In Italy it's called La Cosa Nostra!